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Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 365 (472511)
06-22-2008 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by starman
06-22-2008 8:21 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Starman writes:

I am starting to doubt that understanding the book is the goal with some here. It seems more of desperate and weak attempt to confuse, and cast doubt on it. But I might be missing something somewhere.

Good brother, imo, you are an angel/messenger from God to EvC. I surely hope you will remain on this site for a long time. :cool:

These folks do bring up a lot of stuff which many onlookers out there are thinking, so hopefully even if none here accept the truth, others out there in cyberspace will be enlightened. I pray so.

May God bless you for the time and effort you've put into this inportant and interesting topic.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by starman, posted 06-22-2008 8:21 PM starman has not yet responded

ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 167 of 365 (472513)
06-22-2008 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by starman
06-22-2008 8:18 PM


Re: Earliest extant
This particular piece from FF Bruce shows how bad the art of paleographies can be wrong. The copy of Daniel that was found in Qumran was carbon dated at 125 Bce. Give me hard data over subjective bias any day..
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by starman, posted 06-22-2008 8:18 PM starman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by starman, posted 06-24-2008 1:25 PM ramoss has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 365 (472515)
06-22-2008 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ramoss
06-22-2008 11:05 PM


Messiah Definition
ramoss writes:

Pardon, but that exactly what 'messiah' means. It literally means "anointed one". The two terms are synonymous

You're mistaken there, Ramoss. No way does the text in Daniel fit the description of the prophesied Biblical messiah as depicted by any of the prophets, Old Testament or New. The messiah may be an anointed one, but the word/term anointed may apply to numerous situations relative to scripture whereas messiah would not.

Merriam Webster definition of messiah:

1 capitalized a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews b : Jesus Christ regarded as the savior of the world by Christians
2 : a leader of some hope or cause : DELIVERER

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ramoss, posted 06-22-2008 11:05 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ramoss, posted 06-23-2008 9:52 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 173 by doctrbill, posted 06-23-2008 3:11 PM Buzsaw has responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1808 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 169 of 365 (472517)
06-23-2008 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
06-21-2008 12:54 PM


Re: Biblifobic Futility
quote:
Antiochus DID ban Jewish sacrifices. And Antiochus DID set up what Jews call "the abomination that causes desolation".

This was also emulated, even more fastediously, by the medevial catholic church.

quote:

None of those happened in the seven years after Jesus died.


Not so according to history.

quote:

So it's not bunk. It's a fact.


So it's not bunk. It's a fact.

My point is, one must not lift off selectively from Isaiah or history, and derive conclusions that way. While the Persian king Cyrus did save israel by acknowledging this as a legitimate premise, the Greeks did the reverse of the Persians and of Alexander - a Macedonian. But such does not subscribe to a Messiah - not according to the Isaiah criteria, which is where thise premise comes from. Likewise, it cannot vest itself with the NT, which is a greek inclined doctrine, having nothing to do with Isaiah - except via selectivism and distortion of that writing.

Isaiah never prophesized a Messiah to be resurrected, but the peoples themselves - in the midst of all humanity, and in open form: last time I checked this never happened. Isaiah predicted a humanity at peace from war. Only the reverse occured. can it be - shock of shocks and blasphemy and heresy notwithstanding - someone was wrong about Isaiah - you think?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2008 12:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14959
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 170 of 365 (472530)
06-23-2008 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
06-22-2008 7:30 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
quote:

1. Your problem is that this text does not say Cyrus was the messiah. The word is anoint. He was consecrated/anointed by God for a purpose which was to advance his purpose as king for God's program.

No, your problem is that you don't know what you are talking about. "Anointed one" = "messiah" It's the same word. Check a concordance if you don't believe me.

quote:

2. When you corroborate all of the prophetic messianic texts regarding God's messiah who is to be messianic king of the Jews ...

...you're talking about a different messiah. One that isn't mentioned in Daniel

quote:

3. Definition, Merriam Webster; anoint:

Irrelevant. Well, except to what it means to be a messiah.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 06-22-2008 7:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by starman, posted 06-24-2008 1:35 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14959
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 171 of 365 (472533)
06-23-2008 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by starman
06-22-2008 8:43 PM


Re: You believe, therefore I am right?
quote:

Not the silly and twisted rendition that apparently dances in your head, no. Of course not. Trying to make a God of some little also ran of history is absurd.
Look at the rest of the bible if you doubt that. For example, was this nice king born in Bethlehem? Was his hands and feet pierced? Did he defeat death, and rise again? Etc..? Of course not. Intellectual twot.

I'm not the one with a "silly and twisted version". I'm just going with what the text says. Isaiah 45:1 describes Cyrus as a messiah. And that is ALL that I am saying about that verse.

All the rest of it comes from your imagination. Your "twisted rendition" is entirely your invention.

quote:

I said and meant that Cyrus was predicted long before birth. Not by Daniel, I don't think I said that. You seem to be reading stuff in.

You said it, you denied it, you said it again. And now you deny it again.

If you don't take care over what you say, it's your problem.

Now do you intend to prove that Cyrus was predicted "long before" his birth as you claimed ?

quote:

Who says Daniel was the one that prophesied anything about the name of that king??


YOU did.

quote:

Talk about grasping at straws. Can't blame you, you have no possible case.

I'm just asking you to back up your claims. Its not my fault if you are desperately clutching at straws and say silly things.

quote:

Tell us the premise for the claim. What so called 'mainstream' people believe isn't really important.

I would say that the opinion of the majority of mainstream scholars in any discipline DOES matter. Especially for those of us who aren't in a good position to directly examine the evidence.

Two line of evidence are history -the Book of Daniel is very poor on the time it was supposedly written. e.g. Nabonidus is not even mentioned, yet the apparently fictional "Darus the Mede" is.

quote:

I think if you put it on the table we can all have a chuckle. Don't think you can get away with appeal to popularity, and some unsupported claims here.

I'm having a chuckle right now. You think that your unsupported claims will be accepted.

quote:

No, I don't remember. What happened, your invented messiah came along and ate it with curds and whey??

The second messiah just got "cut off and had nothing". Like the book says. But yes, Antiochus stormed the city. Antiochus banned the sacrifice. Antiochus set up the "abomination that causes desolation".

quote:

There was a certain length of time given, to wrap up history for the people of Daniel.

And that time was 490 years.

quote:

It came in segments, if you bothered to read it at all. So many weeks till Messiah, etc.

I know , you have to try to imply that I haven't read it because you're desperate.

quote:

You seem to feel that we need to tack the last week of their history on there, soon as Messiah gets cut off. No.

You don't feel any need to insert a gap between the first two portions. In fact you boast about how exactly it works out (after you've fiddled the figures). And in fact there is nothing to suggest any gap between any of the divisions.

quote:

There are still things that need to happen, as any look at the rest of the book, and bible would tell even a casual looker.

The casual looker who doesn't know the relevant history, might wrongly think so. Someone better informed would not.

quote:

any things, that, till there completion, as the arcangel plainly said, will not be for many days!!

Take it from Gabe.

Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


As I have shown Daniel 8 is clearly talking of events in the Hellenistic period. That is "many days" from the supposed writing of Daniel in itself. So, once more, you are trying to twist the Bible.

quote:

Notice that the kingdoms of this world are not yet taken over by Messiah? That alone should clue you in, that the vision is still a work in progress. It all comes in the times appointed.

It should clue you in to the fact that the prophecy failed. Obviously the only reason for inventing a gap is as an excuse to try to avoid that fact. If you had any justification from the actual text you would have produced it by now.

quote:

So you do not believe in God, but I do, and that is all you think you need to have some point??? OK. Strange.

As usual you fail to understand the obvious. You beleive that the Bible is the word of God in a fairly literal sense. You believe that the Bible is wrong and you know better (just look at your condemnations of Isaiah 45:1). THerefore you beleive that you know better than God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by starman, posted 06-22-2008 8:43 PM starman has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 172 of 365 (472556)
06-23-2008 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
06-22-2008 11:33 PM


Re: Messiah Definition
I was not making a judgment on what the text in Daniel fits or does not fit. I was making a statement that Messiah is literally 'anointed one'

From a Jewish perspective, the hoped for 'The Messiah' was going to be a military leader (or spiritual leader) to remove foreign rule from Judah, and reestablish a home rule King. (Hint, Herod was not really 'Home rule").

I will state that Jesus does not fit Daniel either (IMO). He does not fit the Jewish expectations, nor did he accomplish what is needed for the Jewish Messiah.

The entire Daniel prophecy fits the apocalyptic theology that developed in the second century BC, and entirely fits events that happened up to about 163-167 BC, but not after that. The 'messiah' as described in Daniel fits no body, especially not Jesus.

In the Jewish culture of the time, there were two 'positions' that were considered 'anointed ones'. One was the High Priest in the temple, the other was the King. The Jewish expectation for "The Messiah" was a king who accomplished certain things.. those things are yet to be accomplished.

The Book of Daniel is written in a lot of vague symbolism that can be interpreted many ways. The fact that Christians have 4 basic methods that are mutually exclusive to 'prove' it is about Jesus show that it is hardly accurate for a prophecy. You have 4 different events as a starting point in the Christian versions, 4 different 'end' points in the Christian versions.

The simplest explanation is the one that doesn't require any prophecy for the future at all. It's nice, simple, fits all the time frames, and all the writing for the 'correct' prophecies is after the fact.

That includes rejecting 3 or 4 different Jewish versions too, all of which are mutually exclusive with each other, as well as the ones Christian versions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 06-22-2008 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 905 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 173 of 365 (472613)
06-23-2008 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
06-22-2008 11:33 PM


"Christ David"
buzsaw writes:

You're mistaken there, Ramoss.

I don't think so, Buzzy.

'Messiah' is the Latinized form of messias, which is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew mashiyach (the anointed one).

'Christ' is the Anglicized form of the Latin christos, which is a transliteration of a Greek translation (christos) of the Hebrew mashiyach (the anointed one).

Beginning in the sixteenth century, the word 'Christ' has been methodically and purposefully stricken from the Old Testament by translating it from the Greek (and Latin), to the English 'anointed.' For a classic example of how the term was once understood we need only refer to the first ever English translation of the Bible by John Wycliffe, a man who is honored as "Father of the Protestant Reformation." At Psalm 17:51 {18:50 in modern Bibles} Wycliffe renders the Vulgate's "christo suo David" as "his crist Dauid." The Vulgate agrees with the Septuagint here and the Septuagint agrees with the Hebrew. Thus, we see in Wycliffe's simple English, the sense of this verse as it was during the first two thousand years of its biblical existence! Modern Bibles uniformly present it as: "his anointed." Even so it is clear by all that is holy reasoning, it should read:

"Christ David"

- In the New Testament, by contrast, the Greco-Roman term Christ is never translated.

By this means Christianity presents a false dichotomy which exaggerates the significance of Jesus as compared to other sons of David.


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 06-22-2008 11:33 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 6:10 PM doctrbill has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 365 (472632)
06-23-2008 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by doctrbill
06-23-2008 3:11 PM


Re: "Christ David"
doctrbill writes:

'Messiah' is the Latinized form of messias, which is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew mashiyach (the anointed one).

Well then I, Buzsaw, according to the Greek can lay claim to "the anointed one." I have been ageipsantesed (anointed) according to James 5:14 for healing by the elders of the church.

However, Buzsaw/anointed not Buzsaw/messiah. I don't fit the definition of the latter nor do I fit the criteria of the prophets including Daniel's little stone/messiah that demolishes the kingdoms and his becomes the prevalent global one. If you can't even accept the dictionary definition of these word/terms, then I can't help you.

You people need to get real. I provided a bonafide dictionary definition of each word and no way do they interchange as per definition. I'm not denying the anointing of Cyrus, but he sure does in no way fit the ticket for Biblical messiah. You people who claim so are just showing your ignorance of Biblical doctrine, including the deciphering of the prophecies.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by doctrbill, posted 06-23-2008 3:11 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2008 6:52 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 181 by doctrbill, posted 06-23-2008 11:01 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 14959
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 175 of 365 (472635)
06-23-2008 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
06-23-2008 6:10 PM


Re: "Christ David"
quote:

However, Buzsaw/anointed not Buzsaw/messiah. I don't fit the definition of the latter nor do I fit the criteria of the prophets including Daniel's little stone/messiah that demolishes the kingdoms and his becomes the prevalent global one.

You may qualify as a "messiah". A High Priest or a legitimately appointed King of Isreal or Judah - or better yet someone identified as a messiah in the Bible would have an even better claim.

quote:

You people need to get real. I provided a bonafide dictionary definition of each word and no way do they interchange as per definition.

That's because you're using an English dictionary, influenced by Christian doctrine. Neither Daniel not Isaiah are Christian books nor are they written in English.

The books of Isaiah and Daniel use THE SAME WORD. How will a dictionary help there ?

quote:

I'm not denying the anointing of Cyrus, but he sure does in no way fit the ticket for Biblical messiah.

Nobody is claiming that he is The Messiah. Just A messiah. Why do you and starman persist in this misrepresentation ?

quote:

You people who claim so are just showing your ignorance of Biblical doctrine, including the deciphering of the prophecies.

Disagreeing with Christian doctrine is not the same as being ignorant of it. As we have seen Christian "decipherings" are simply force-fitting the text into doctrine. Rejecting that is a sign of knowledge, not ignorance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 6:10 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 9:08 PM PaulK has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 365 (472653)
06-23-2008 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by PaulK
06-23-2008 6:52 PM


Re: "Christ David"
PaulK writes:

Disagreeing with Christian doctrine is not the same as being ignorant of it. As we have seen Christian "decipherings" are simply force-fitting the text into doctrine. Rejecting that is a sign of knowledge, not ignorance.

One can concoct up about any doctrine they want by isolating scripture texts. One must apply corroborating scriptures in understanding Biblical prophecy as well as other doctrines. Daniel was given what God wanted to dish out for his time but John the prophet of the NT who wrote Revelation filled in many of the blanks which were not revealed to Daniel. That's why in Daniel 12:8 and 9 when Daniel wanted to know the end of all these things, God told him to go his way for the words are closed up and sealed til the time of the end.

One must go to Revelation 13, 17 and 18 where the ten horned beast becomes the 10 horns of Daniel's beast. There are many similarities of Daniel's account and John's. For example, both beasts persecute the saints of God (i.e Christians), etc. This is happening as we debate. Daniel's 10 horn beast is now emerging and the long prophesied anti-christ is likely present on earth now. Obama get's close to the description, but I'm not yet saying he is the one. Perhaps so; perhaps not. Obama is a Muslim. I'm convinced of that.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2008 6:52 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2008 1:37 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 365 (472658)
06-23-2008 9:29 PM


10 Horned Beast/Integrating the Races
Another clue to the 10 horned beast of Daniel relative to the end times is the phenomena of integrating the races. Read it in Daniel 2:40-43. God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel. Your diesel will either not run at all or spit and sputter at half speed or less. That's where the world is going.

The Daniel 2 Image's 10 toes are what the 10 horns are to the beast, the end time antichrist world government.


Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by DrJones*, posted 06-23-2008 9:39 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2008 1:49 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1841
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 178 of 365 (472662)
06-23-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Buzsaw
06-23-2008 9:29 PM


Re: 10 Horned Beast/Integrating the Races
God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.

mmm good old religious inspired racial bigotry


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 9:29 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 10:00 PM DrJones* has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 365 (472667)
06-23-2008 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by DrJones*
06-23-2008 9:39 PM


Re: 10 Horned Beast/Integrating the Races
DrJones writes:

mmm good old religious inspired racial bigotry

No, Doc, no bigotry. I get along fine with blacks, Jews, Hispanics and all and treat them alike; always have. Im just observing the prophecy and observing the Jeremiah Wrights, the Black Muslim Nation of Islam and such.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by DrJones*, posted 06-23-2008 9:39 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by DrJones*, posted 06-23-2008 10:46 PM Buzsaw has responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1841
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 180 of 365 (472671)
06-23-2008 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Buzsaw
06-23-2008 10:00 PM


Re: 10 Horned Beast/Integrating the Races
I get along fine with blacks, Jews, Hispanics and all and treat them alike; always have

But you wouldn't a black man marrying your daughter or a persian woman marrying your son would you?


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2008 10:00 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 06-25-2008 6:00 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

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