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Author Topic:   Re-Problems With The Big Bang Theory
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 55 of 273 (471376)
06-16-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by IamJoseph
06-16-2008 4:30 AM


Re: Update Your Model
The universe is not expanding, but rather, the original point is becoming larger.
Huh???
This is also a reason why the uni does/must have a centre, and this is not dependent on being able to determine that centre. The centre is now within the expanded original BB particle.
If you can't determine where the center is, then how could you simply say it is there?
I didn't see how you concluded that...
If the above view is taken
Which it shouldn't be...
- there is no alternative to creationism
Creation as an unguilded mechanism, Yes(i.e. Quantum fluctuations etc...) However, religiously based creationism(i.e. Christianity etc...) or plainly as a God, then No. There are many alternatives to that, like Quantum fluctuations...
- there had to have been an external factor impacting on the original particle, and there was nothing else whatsoever around.
First you need to clarify what you mean by external factor, and where would 'external' be located? External to what?

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 4:30 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 1:46 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 56 of 273 (471382)
06-16-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
06-15-2008 10:10 PM


Re: Update Your Model
Inflation seems like a good idea because without it BBT is in a lot of trouble.
How so if we still have the fact that the Universe is expanding?
Inflation is just the name given to the catalist for expantion. But we know it was small and we know it is quite large now, something did this right?
I believe what cavediver, and im sure he can answer for himself, is explaining is that the problems with the inflationary models are known and the final theory will be something similar that may include or exclude certain aspects of the currect accelerated expantion theory.
Heres just a quick quote from the Robert H. Brandenberger paper you presented:
quote:
String theory may lead to a natural resolution of some of the puzzles of inflationary cosmology.
And I read the rest and didn't see how you just determined that the BBT is somehow debunked?
In this quote...
quote:
During
the slow-rolling period of the inflationary Universe, the constraint equation takes on a very simple form
and implies that and are proportional.
He implies there is an inflation.
It seems, of course with my very early understanding(just finished my first semester of physics), that you have interpreted said paper to your liking. You took many things out of context, you can't just quote conclusions to papers and not take into context the rest of the paper.
Could you point to something in that paper which says that the BBT is debunked??

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 10:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 1:50 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2008 7:54 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2008 8:55 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 124 of 273 (471861)
06-18-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
06-18-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Update Your Model
Now when we get to the scientific senerio I become the sceptic, the doubter.
I too become a bit of a skeptic, or a doubter even, when I speak to someone in the medical field who is giving me a diagnosis. I think we all become like that when we don't understand something and are out of our fields. But, at the end of the day I go with those that know, because I wouldn't even understand the doctor if he explained it to me technically. Because im not a doctor.
You are not a cosmologist! You don't even have a full grasp of it in the layman sense. You are not educated in it and continue to show stupidity through your replies and questions. You are not helping those who want to know, and you insult those who have tried to help...they even try to help YOU. As has been your case with someone like CAVEDIVER, who is only here to help those who have a true desire to understand, and not someone like yourself who has made himself a self-proclaimed cosmologist and argues without any concept of what you are argueing about.
In the words of the great Archie Bunker..."Stifle Yourself!!!

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2008 6:18 PM ICANT has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 141 of 273 (472203)
06-20-2008 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by IamJoseph
06-20-2008 9:56 PM


Re: Finite
I think not.
Why not?
Don't tell me you're one of those 'there must a purpose' people. A purpose to what 80 years of life at best? The 'manual to life', as you called it, is all there is because it would explain birth and death, then you're done. A purpose would give YOU the feeling that life is infinite, when life, I can guarantee you, is finite. That goes for humans, Stars and Universes.
So a purpose to what exactly?
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by IamJoseph, posted 06-20-2008 9:56 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 06-21-2008 9:56 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 187 of 273 (472701)
06-24-2008 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by IamJoseph
06-21-2008 9:56 AM


Re: Finite
A purpose and a complex construct are two different things; the latter can subsist w/o the former - namely with no purpose but to exhibit a complex structure, going nowhere and for no reason.
I agree.
But upto that point, we have every reason to believe that all functions are purposeful, whether voluntary or involuntary - in the macro and micro realms.
Why?
Everything in the universe thus appears purposeful to its surrounds, and everything appears intergrated in a critical mode.
Purposeful? or adaptive? Purposeful is theological, don't try to sneak that one by...
the design takes the shortest route between two points
Theological POV, there is no design.
and utilises everything of its attributes purposefully, down to the last quark colors: why should we assume all existence is purposeless?
Because it does this without consciousness. It is part of the adaptive qualities in nature. If you want to see that as a 'purpose' then ok, but a purpose to what? And to satisfy what exactlly?
That we do not know what happens after our existence, does not mean there is no purpose - it means we do not know, and that everything does has a purpose.
No it would just mean that we don't know, period, no purpose required.
On the other hand I would agrue that we do know exactlly what happens when you die, we've studied the decomposition of organisms enough to know the process after death. Anything outside of the physical is NEVER gonna be known, so imagine away, no one will ever be able to prove you wrong. Heaven, Valhala, a Paradise full of virgins etc., its all free for the believing.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 06-21-2008 9:56 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 2:55 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 188 of 273 (472703)
06-24-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by IamJoseph
06-24-2008 7:56 AM


Re: Change
IAJ,
Are you saying that if the Universe changes then it is no longer an infinte Universe because it chahged from its original state? IOW, whatever it was,(the Universe), could have been infinte but, since it changed('IT' being the Universe in its original state), by definition is no longer infinte?
If this is your position?
I believe the concept however, is that the Universe is finite but, space is infinite...As I understand it.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 7:56 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 2:48 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 189 of 273 (472705)
06-24-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Straggler
06-24-2008 6:45 AM


Re: Change
Straggler,
I think we are all conceptualizing it differently.
I believe IAJ means, and if im wrong please correct me IAJ, simply that a car can be infinte but, if you scrap the metal, melt it all down and turn it into a thin piece of metal, even though the material remains, you no longer have an infinite car, you still have the metal though. Which is where I would place my understanding of it, perhaps like you Straggler, in saying that if the material remains then some aspect of it is infinite.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 06-24-2008 6:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 06-24-2008 11:29 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 191 of 273 (472713)
06-24-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Straggler
06-24-2008 11:29 AM


Re: Change
All I am saying is that the concepts of infinite and unchanging do not necessarily always go together in the way that he is asserting based on his biblical cherry picking.
I agree.
If you can work out IAJ's overall meaning you are a better man than I.
Honestly it was a long shot on my part to attempt an understanding of his logic.
He also has a very unique take on things and it is easy to get lost in the world of IAJ......(see the thread spherical issues where IAJ argued for 300 posts that the surface of a sphere has a centre!!!)
LOLOLOLOLOL...I do recall reading that. I think he debates himself most of the time

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 06-24-2008 11:29 AM Straggler has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 197 of 273 (472784)
06-24-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by IamJoseph
06-24-2008 2:48 PM


Re: Change
An infinite cannot be contained in a finite.
I said the opposite of that. Multiverses would exist how?

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 2:48 PM IamJoseph has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 198 of 273 (472787)
06-24-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by IamJoseph
06-24-2008 2:55 PM


Re: Finite
and that science becomes very desperate when reduced to the semantical.
Funny, I believe my arguement with you in the past has been that you are the one who is being semantical. There is no semantical arguement here, purpose is purpose and adaptive is adaptive. There is no purpose to a pineapple, unless again you are taking this to a theological level as well. A pineapple is the result of...not a purpose for...
This usually becomes a cyclical arguement - meaning you cannot assume your right.
I assume nothing, im right period.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 2:55 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 11:56 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 201 of 273 (472847)
06-25-2008 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by IamJoseph
06-24-2008 11:56 PM


Re: Finite
My position is MV, & para-uni's cannot subsist in a finite realm - because earth, matter and all the stuff which is this uni contained is finite, and thus cannot exist pre- or outside the universe. Yes/no?
There is no 'outside' the Universe. What I was refering to was the fact that we are only a 4 dimentional Universe within a Multi dimentional space. However, to your question, 'is everything within our Universe finite?', I would say yes. But only in the sense that I think you're asking the question.
You assume a pineapple has no purpose. In fact, the only instance where 'adaptation' cannot apply is when there is a definitive and exacting usage factor applying. A car is not the result of adaptation but purposeful design: guess why!
A pineapple has no purpose, its there, you consume it cause you can, if it wasn't there you'd eat something else. And most importantly I was refering to its appearance being purposeless, not after the fact. Hell for all I know theres an island somewhere where they only have pineapples. I would imagine to those people the pineapple has purpose. But we weren't talking about purpose in the sense that *I* give it purpose, we meant in the sense of; is its existance do to a purpose or is the pineapple a result of adaptation that happen to spring out a pineapple(obviously not that simplified)?
The car is purposeful to us. However, to nature its a horrible destructive tool used by one particular species that doesn't give a shit about the enviroment. The car has caused more damage than good(over all). But just cause we give it purpose, doesn't mean it actually has one, get rid of humans and the car is just another hunk of metal that does absolutly nothing.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by IamJoseph, posted 06-24-2008 11:56 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by IamJoseph, posted 06-25-2008 9:23 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 208 of 273 (472984)
06-26-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by IamJoseph
06-25-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Finite
But knock, knock! All dimensions are post-universe. Including the premise of nothingness. There are no pre-, pra-, or multi-dimensions/universes; nor pre-space, nor pre-nothingness. And in this view - you have lost. Stupid.
What the fuck are you talking about? I asked you a question 'how would multi-verses work?'. I meant that to be 'how would they work within your finite spacetime thoery?'
I have lost nothing since I was holding to no particular side of an arguement. Are you that pathetic that you need to claim victory rather than try to express yourself clearer so people you speak to can understand your premises better?
Honestly I could careless about finite or infinte, I was just giving your premise the benefit of trying to understand it. I clearly said,
quote:
in the sense that I think you're asking the question.
That should have made you realize that I don't understand you and took a chance at answering what I thought you meant, a simple, 'no thats not what I was refering to' or 'no you are not understanding me', would have sufficed, but you wanna be a prick...well, then go fuck yourself.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by IamJoseph, posted 06-25-2008 9:23 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by IamJoseph, posted 06-26-2008 3:34 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 229 of 273 (473340)
06-28-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by IamJoseph
06-27-2008 9:53 PM


Re: Infinity
One has to agree with the position prior to the universe [namely, all things], there was ONE - as opposed no things/nothingness. Nothingness is a subjective posiion, meaning it is limited to what one can fathom, discern, calculate, measure, see or contain in their vocab. And this means only that there is ONE factor when no things existed - meaning there is never nothing - else no things could be possible. Even the notion of no-things or nothingness - requires ONE to say that is so!
This is a philosophical position and not an evidenced based position that you have taken. I know to you it feels as though you've expressed it scientifically but to us reading, it doesn't translate that way.
Not enough is known about this particular area of cosmology for you to jusy insert your theological bias in there as a plausble theory, without any evidence mind you.
If cosmologist and physicist still haven't agreed on it, where do you get off just filling in their blanks with you conclusions based on only YOUR understanding?
At some point you're going to have to admit to yourself that you are just talking out of your ass...

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by IamJoseph, posted 06-27-2008 9:53 PM IamJoseph has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 230 of 273 (473343)
06-28-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by IamJoseph
06-27-2008 10:08 PM


Re: THE BEST PRE-UNIVERSE SCENARIO?
That the uni had a beginning; that next came entropy [formless to form]; then came critical seperations of the elements [light from darkness; water from land; etc]; then came life giving luminosity; then came life forms - in a chronological, evolutionary order.
Yes and shortly after this there was a talking snake offering temptations to humans via fruit.
Also, this is not the original language that you quoted, in the original language many of the words don't translate as you've written them, and you are ignoring rhe rest of the garbage that follows the opening words of the Bible.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/...civ_reader_1/hebrew_creation.html

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by IamJoseph, posted 06-27-2008 10:08 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by IamJoseph, posted 06-28-2008 9:44 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 236 by Admin, posted 06-29-2008 6:56 AM onifre has replied
 Message 239 by IamJoseph, posted 06-29-2008 7:55 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 245 of 273 (473473)
06-29-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Admin
06-29-2008 6:56 AM


Re: THE BEST PRE-UNIVERSE SCENARIO?
Could you perhaps tone down the language a bit in the manifesto in your signature?
Sure
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Admin, posted 06-29-2008 6:56 AM Admin has not replied

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