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Author Topic:   Scotus rules 2nd amendment is an individual right
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 176 (473117)
06-27-2008 2:18 AM


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/washington/27scotuscnd.html?em&ex=1214712000&en=56e91cf1bf9e8c71&ei=5087%0A

Seems obvious to me. The right of the people means it's a personal right, not a collective right via the states or the federal government. Otherwise, you could argue the right of the people to assemble or for free speech, etc,....is merely the right of a select portion of the people and not everyone.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 2 of 176 (475282)
07-14-2008 4:39 PM


the 5-4 vote show what truely scary times we live in though, should have been 9-0 it was so obvious.
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2796 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 3 of 176 (475285)
07-14-2008 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Artemis Entreri
07-14-2008 4:39 PM


14 - 0
It should have been 14-0. The sound five should have snuck in and voted twice.


Kindly

∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

Everyone deserves a neatly dug grave. It is the timing that's in dispute.

牛持ちでない方は、男です。


This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 4 of 176 (475296)
07-14-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Artemis Entreri
07-14-2008 4:39 PM


Constitution
What exactly does the US constitution say about the right to bear arms?

As an outside observer the American obsession with gun ownership and the seemingly obvious violent society that this results in is really quite baffling.


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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 176 (475307)
07-14-2008 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
07-14-2008 6:22 PM


Re: Constitution
The Second Amendment

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Note the word militia at the time meant every able bodied male between the ages of 18 and 45. Plenty of references in the Federalist Papers that the militia was not a government body. Everone had to supply their own arms, and show up when called.

Constitution of the State of Wyoming:

Sec. 24. "The right of citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied."

Because of Section 24, Wyoming is complete open carry state. No county of city government can pass a law saying I cannot openly carry a firearm.

Do you think private citizens should be allowed to own battleships? Let me guess, you don't think so, but that's just because your a Brit and something like 80% of British ships taken or sunk during the War of 1812 were done by American Privateers.

BTW I've lived and worked here for 59 years. Never had anything stolden, been assulted, or know a single person who was, don't even lock my house either here or the one in Colorado. If someone wants in I don't want them destroying the door or windows.

So do you go to work in the morning and leave your house unlocked? How about at night when you're there? I thought so.

Check out the murder statistics for Russia a place where all guns are illegal.

America is actually a very safe place, if you stay out of the cities where all the Democrats live.

Edited by petrophysics, : No reason given.


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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 176 (475313)
07-15-2008 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by petrophysics1
07-14-2008 9:16 PM


petrophysics writes:

quote:
America is actually a very safe place, if you stay out of the cities where all the Democrats live.

Incorrect. The opposite is true. "Blue" states have less crime than "red."


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 7 of 176 (475315)
07-15-2008 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-27-2008 2:18 AM


randman writes:

quote:
Seems obvious to me. The right of the people means it's a personal right, not a collective right via the states or the federal government.

It seems you have the NRA version of the amendment that begins with an ellipsis. In reality, the amendment reads:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The last time I checked, you are not a militia ("Yeah, we got a 'militia.' His name is Bob.") The last time I checked, the purpose of a militia is not self-defense against criminals or hunting. If you read the opinion, it's all about parsing of words but for all his parsing, Scalia can't seem to understand that the "prefatory" clause he identifies specifically and directly provides the context in which the "operative" clause must be interpreted.

Even though he directly acknowledges it:

Scalia in DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER writes:

In United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 179 (1939), we explained that “the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.”

Nothing in there about self-defense or hunting.

Now, before you hit that "Reply" button, think for just a minute:

Might there be something else in the Constitution that would be relevant to the question of an individual right to own a gun for personal reasons?

Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 8 of 176 (475329)
07-15-2008 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by petrophysics1
07-14-2008 9:16 PM


Re: Constitution
America is actually a very safe place, if you stay out of the cities where all the Democrats live.

word.

Incorrect. The opposite is true. "Blue" states have less crime than "red."

correct he said CITIES not states. nice try on the strawman there, but im watching.

Nothing in there about self-defense or hunting.

that's because it is not about self defense or hunting. it about fighting the government.

As an outside observer the American obsession with gun ownership and the seemingly obvious violent society that this results in is really quite baffling.

we'd probably be violent without the guns, though out of the 20 or so lawful gun owners i know, none of them have fired on another person, unless they were serving in the US military. guns dont make us violent.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 176 (475333)
07-15-2008 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Artemis Entreri
07-15-2008 8:59 AM


Re: Constitution
guns dont make us violent

So what does?

America is actually a very safe place, if you stay out of the cities where all the Democrats live

Travelling through the rural parts of the Southern US states it certainly does not feel very safe!!!!!! I very much had the feeling that one word or gesture out of place or misinterpreted and I would be in really quite serious trouble. Frankly it felt far more dangerous than wandering around Manhatten at 3AM.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 10 of 176 (475335)
07-15-2008 9:36 AM


So what does?

honestly i thik is class battles and the simple divisions we place on ourselves

Travelling through the rural parts of the Southern US states it certainly does not feel very safe!!!!!! I very much had the feeling that one word or gesture out of place or misinterpreted and I would be in really quite serious trouble. Frankly it felt far more dangerous than wandering around Manhatten at 3AM.

depends on where you were. private property is up to the owner and i would stay off of it. as far as the wrong words or gestures, you would probably be ok, as we could tell by the funny way you talk that you are cluess as to what was going on. its all based on personal perspective though.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : wrong html


Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 11 of 176 (475339)
07-15-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Artemis Entreri
07-15-2008 9:36 AM


depends on where you were

Bars, petrol stations, diners etc. etc. etc........
I was glad to get back to civilisation.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 12 of 176 (475361)
07-15-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
07-15-2008 10:30 AM


petrol stations

see you get pass for that. half the ppl you met probably didn't know what you meant by that. many of us like it away from civilization. If you speak english funny, we know you aint from around here, and will be more tolerant about social faux pas ;)


This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 176 (475373)
07-15-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Artemis Entreri
07-15-2008 12:58 PM


Anti Everything
If you speak english funny, we know you aint from around here, and will be more tolerant about social faux pas

I did not get the impression of much tolerance.......
And social faux pas seemed to include expressing any views that were not textbook Christian Conservative (anti gay, anti abortion, anti democrat, anti European, anti Arab, in fact anti almost everything except guns)

Lets put it this way - I would have been scared for my life if I had expressed many of the opinions that I express on this forum.

Is that your definition of a peaceful, friendly and tolerant community?

You may leave your door unlocked all night but I felt I had to keep my opinions tightly locked away at all times. Is that freedom?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 14 of 176 (475378)
07-15-2008 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Straggler
07-15-2008 2:01 PM


Re: Anti Everything
Is that your definition of a peaceful, friendly and tolerant community?

yes, yes, and no.

i would guess it would be more friendly, people are generally more friendly in rural america than in the city. when i asked your location you werent very specific outside of bars, gas stations, and diners so i cannot really know which region of the south you were in, though my knowledge of the deep south is not the good. because while you may call all of us "yanks" or "yankees", a special term is reserved for me in the south "Damn Yankee".

"an armed society is a polite society"--Robert A. Heinlein (American Writer)

good call on the not anti-gun. maybe its just an american thing. I used that quote because i believe it. and it relates to your question about peaceful.

here is a similar quote from another american writer:
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."--Robert E. Howard

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions"-- G.K. Chesterton (English Writer)

i choose this quote because i didn't want you to think that all i had was american quotes in my arsenal, and since your are from London, i thought i could use one from a guy from London too.

many people in the rural areas of the United States are not tolerant, though I'm not sure why that is bad or why they should be tolerant. I dont base a community's tolerance as a judgement for that community.

I dont think Tolerance is the answer. I dont think people should be forced to tolerate things they dont like. you can be intolerant if you want to.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2308 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 15 of 176 (475379)
07-15-2008 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Straggler
07-15-2008 2:01 PM


Re: Anti Everything
You may leave your door unlocked all night but I felt I had to keep my opinions tightly locked away at all times. Is that freedom?

ha! you edited your post during my reply.

of course its freedom. it was your choice not to say what you wanted to say. unless your opinions where so liberal that, like many on here, cannot be stated without personal attacks and name calling; then you are on your own. knuck if you buck! you dont have to agree. im catholic, i get into it with the bible belt protestants all the time, we call each other out, and then agree to disagree. that's pretty much it. dont be scurrd.

i feel for you a bit though. you where in a foreign land filled with different people, whom you had some misconceptions about, and you didn't want to get into a negative situation. While i have never been to England (and therefore cannot totally empathize), i have been to the low countries (Benelux) where i caught a tremendous amount of heat for 1. being and american, and 2. being a republican. one time while I was in Germany i pretended i was Canadian to avoid some haters, who where growing violent, and where not peaceful, friendly, or tolerant, so i do understand a bit about being a foreigner in a strange land.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : forgot somthing


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