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Author Topic:   Marsupial evolution
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 71 of 91 (473207)
06-27-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Wounded King
06-27-2008 4:44 PM


Re: Empirical studies of convergence
If you aren't saying that random mutations are introducing a significant enough random factor to radically alter the environment in a random manner then what was your argument?
Well, I am saying ASSUMING for sake of argument common descent via random mutations, etc,....that the make-up of the available animals and plants which presumably is indeed produced via this random process (according to evos) is a VERY significant aspect of the environment. That is just a fact.
Neodarwinian evos are adaptionists claiming the environment and even very different environments are such a powerful influence as to produce the marsupial and placental pairs. This hypothesis is not supported by any actual studies and empirical data and is highly illogical. For one, the nonbiological environment is markedly different between places, and another the environment also includes the biota within it.
Do you just assume this? There are lab based studies on convergence in viruses (as you yourself referenced in another thread), bacteriophages (Bull et al., 1997), and Drosophila (Matos et al., 2002). The Bull et al. paper is actually probably better than your SIV paper for showing genetic convergence
Since you agree with me on genetic convergence or at least to a degree, why didn't you just say that up-front (as I already suggested you had agreed there were studies indicating that before)?
However, genetic convergence is different than the adaptionism aka as NeoDarwinism which insists that the environment is the crucial commonality creating marsupual and placental pairs. In reality, the adaptionist position is untested here. The evidence supports the front loading or interior mechanism position (men like De Grasse) so often derided by Darwinists.
Now, just for the record, I am not saying I agree with de Grasse, nor the IDers of today that advocate front loading, but there position is definitely more in line with the facts than NDists aka as evos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Wounded King, posted 06-27-2008 4:44 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 1:27 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 73 of 91 (473280)
06-28-2008 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Blue Jay
06-28-2008 1:27 AM


Re: Empirical studies of convergence
Randman, I haven't seen anybody claim that the environment is responsible for the convergence between thylacine and wolf.
Really?
In fact, I'm quite sure they said it was their ecological niche.
So why would their ecological niche be the same? Keep in mind there is little reason to believe a random process would duplicate itself unless there is some other factor. The other factor evos usually give is the environment. Keep in mind the ecological niche is produced, presumably, by the available biota, and the available biota certainly differs in different parts of the world, and increases presumably according to evos by random mutations conferring selective advantage and creating evolution.
There is absolutely therefore no reason ND processes should create placental and marsupial pairs.
The thylacine family (yes, they have their own separate family) evolved alongside large herbivores that were probably not ecologically very different from ungulates.
Carnivorous dinosaurs and other carnivores eat large herbivores too. It's not like dogs and thycines are the only predators that could evolve in this niche. There is no reason to expect a duplication in a random process.
So, thylacines likely evolved to hunt things that are very similar to the things wolves evolved to hunt. Doesn't it make sense that these two animals would evolve similarities based on similar life history traits?
Not really. All sorts of creatures could evolve and do the same thing. Don't large cats eat the same prey, for example?
How about marsupial and placental mice?
In a sense, marsupial mice fill the ecological roles played by the smallest placental predators on other continents, for example, shrews, while the marsupial rats are ecologically similar to larger small predators, such as weasels.
Marsupial Rats and Mice - Species, Australia, Spp, and Predators - JRank Articles
Why should marsupial mice be so similar to placental mice when they are ecologically "simmilar" to weasels, for example, and play a role more similar to shrews, similar to mice but not exactly the same?
Marsupial Rats and Mice - Species, Australia, Spp, and Marsupials - JRank Articles

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 1:27 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 3:28 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 75 of 91 (473290)
06-28-2008 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Blue Jay
06-28-2008 3:28 AM


Re: Empirical studies of convergence
You still offer no reason for placental and marsupial pairs. The reason why there should not be pairs is that evolution is supposedly a random process in terms of mutations. The reason evos give is the environment but the environment is different and the ecological niches are different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 3:28 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 4:06 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 77 of 91 (473376)
06-28-2008 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Blue Jay
06-28-2008 4:06 AM


Re: Empirical studies of convergence
Evolution is not a random process.
So is it a guided process?
Mutation is not evolution.
So mutatation is't incorporated into the Theory of Evolution? Care to prove that?
a certain combination of numbers on a set of dice does not render it impossible to roll the same set again later. This shows that it is perfectly within the bounds of probability that random processes can repeat themselves,
I hope you are not serious here. Yea, things can happen again. There is an area called statistics dealing with this. The chances of some things occuring are so remote that they are considered to have some cause if they do, repeatedly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Blue Jay, posted 06-28-2008 4:06 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 06-29-2008 11:20 AM randman has not replied
 Message 79 by hadar288, posted 06-30-2008 9:51 AM randman has not replied

  
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