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Author Topic:   front loading: did evos get it backwards
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 164 (471155)
06-15-2008 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-12-2008 10:52 PM


For clarity, let me preface this proposed thread with the comment that I don't subscribe to front loading ID theories about evolution necessarily, but at least think they have some scientific merit as a potential hypothesis, being rooted in some facts, as oppossed to NeoDarwinism.
If you are going to pretend that mutation, recombination, lateral gene transfer, natural selection, and genetic drift are not facts, perhaps you should start another thread. You could call it: "Randman Denies Reality ... Again".
NeoDarwinism, on the other hand, posits a slow accumulation of genes via mutations which are selected for by organisms adapting an acquired trait granting them a natural selective advantage.
Is there nothing you can't mess up?
"Organisms adapting an acquired trait ..." oh dear.
---
What's wrong with front-loading is the obvious fact that when we observe adaptive evolution take place, it isn't front-loaded. We observe the creation of new genes and alleles by mutation, not the bringing of previously untranscribed genes into play.
To this we might add the consideration that front-loaded evolution is impossible. For if a gene is not yet in use, then there is nothing to prevent it from being degraded by mutations, since natural selection won't act on it even as a conservative force. Dormant front-loaded genes would be have their function annihilated by mutation and genetic drift millions of years before they were needed.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 1 by randman, posted 06-12-2008 10:52 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 06-15-2008 3:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 164 (471301)
06-15-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
06-15-2008 3:03 PM


Nice attempt to avoid the thread topic with circular reasoning.
You are a liar. I have not tried to avoid the thread topic of front-loaded evolution, which I have discussed at length.
Problem is you don't observe "evolution" as defined by the origin of new and the higher taxa.
Evolution is not defined by the "origin of new and higher taxa", a phrase that is all but devoid of meaning.
I reiterate that all the evolution that we observe is not front-loaded.
All you observe is something you claim is "evolution" and define it so ...
Actually, it is not I who define the meaning of scientific terms.
... but clearly is not the mechanism, assuming common descent even occurred, that produced life as we know it.
When you say that this is "clearly" true, you are speaking for yourself rather than for, let's say, biologists, aren't you?
It is interesting to see what is "clear" to you, considering that you are helpless to understand even the simplest of statements in your native language. Yet somehow your own effortless genius in overturning 150 years of science, ah, yes, that's quite clear. To you.
In other words, it must be impossible because NeoDarwinism just has to be true. The fact that contrary to ND, we don't see a gradual evolving of new genes as new traits are acquired but that all these types of genes pre-existed the theoritical evolution of plant and animal lineages just cannot be, eh? Has to be impossible....darn the facts.
That is not what I said in other words. That was something that I did not say nor in any way imply that dribbled out of your own fevered brain.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 164 (471487)
06-17-2008 6:37 AM


Randman is now so far off in his own little world that I have no idea what he's talking about.
Does anyone want to take a guess?

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 111 of 164 (473090)
06-26-2008 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by randman
06-23-2008 11:38 PM


Re: been on the road.....
The point is what NeoDarwinism predicts and what it predicts is a rough parellel with morphology and the genome due to random mutations being adapted to a wider population group via natural selection ...
Keep trying. One day, just by chance alone, you may manage to use all the right words in the right order.
Unless you always screw it up by design.
We have very simple organisms with massive genomes ...
Do any of them have intact genes with potential biological function lying in unused storage for future use, as in front-loaded evolution?
Would you care to give us an example of one of these organisms, so's we can see what it's doing with its genes?
... and evolution from the LCA via loss of genes.
The article you cited does not in fact say that.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 96 by randman, posted 06-23-2008 11:38 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 164 (473091)
06-26-2008 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by redneck22
06-24-2008 11:09 AM


Re: Shaking up the tree of life
Randman said:
Or is it your contention that no matter what the results are, NeoDarwinism predicts it (as far as this issue)?
http://www.physorg.com/news127055240.html
"This finding challenges the traditional view of the base of the tree of life, which honored the lowly sponge as the earliest diverging animal. "This was a complete shocker," says Dunn. "So shocking that we initially thought something had gone very wrong."
"But even after Dunn's team checked and rechecked their results and added more data to their study, their results still suggested that the comb jelly, which has tissues and a nervous system, split off from other animals before the tissue-less, nerve-less sponge.
The presence of the relatively complex comb jelly at the base of the tree of life suggests that the first animal was probably more complex than previously believed, says Dunn."
I think the NeoDarwinists specialise in the game called Heads I win, Tails you lose.
Huh?
Scientist Makes New Observation, Revises Old Opinion Shock!
This ... is ... how ... it's ... meant ... to ... work.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 140 of 164 (473454)
06-29-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by randman
06-28-2008 3:37 PM


Re: Shaking up the tree of life
Why not?
Because the theory of evolution predicts that in humans the proportion of such alleles should be increasing, and so finding that it is increasing would not consistute a counter-example to the theory.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 152 of 164 (473798)
07-02-2008 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Wounded King
07-02-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Don't you want to discuss the actual OP topic then?
Don't just keep repeating the same claims, why not show us some specific instances where 'front loader's specifically predicted findings like this?
Er ... because he's not telling the truth?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 160 of 164 (474028)
07-04-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by bluegenes
07-04-2008 8:33 AM


Re: Front loading
The only fun we're going to get out of them with this "front-loading" stuff is if any scientist takes it up. So long as it's just randman lying about stuff, it won't make any difference.
But if some actual scientist could start talking front-loading bollocks, some freak like Behe, only with front-loading, then eventually the creationists would start parroting it, and then we could have so much fun.
I guess we can still mock randman for telling lies in the cause of a notion he doesn't even believe in himself, but shooting fish in a barrel is not really a sport.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by bluegenes, posted 07-04-2008 8:33 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
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