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Author Topic:   Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 7 of 402 (473749)
07-02-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-01-2008 1:08 PM


Question: On what grounds can IDists/Creationists claim that their viewpoint is scientific when no new discoveries, new technologies or advancement in knowledge has ever been gained as a result of their explanations or research endeavors?
Answer: IDists/Creationists start with understanding that God, the Intelligent Designer, is the Creator. Then we proceed to discover as much about God's creation as He allows us to discover. To the IDists/Creationists, this is what science is all about, proving cause and effect in everything between micro to macro space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2008 1:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-02-2008 5:04 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 07-02-2008 5:27 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2008 8:09 AM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 10 of 402 (473780)
07-02-2008 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
07-02-2008 5:04 PM


science - a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing (proving) the operation of general laws
IDists/Creationists allow this principle to guide their pursuit of true science, but not theories such as evolution which can never be proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-02-2008 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2008 11:23 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2008 9:06 AM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 11 of 402 (473782)
07-02-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brian
07-02-2008 5:27 PM


From the understanding that most scientists now have that the universe suddenly came into existance from something smaller than a pin head; i.e. nothing. That's what convinces IDists/Creationists this is a sensible place to start?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 07-02-2008 5:27 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 3:11 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 14 of 402 (473800)
07-02-2008 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2008 11:23 PM


The lie is all yours in that the theory of evolution is and always will be just a theory, and a very bad one at that.
If evolutionists can reasonably believe that the universe came from nothing, it's certainly not unreasonable to believe that only Creator God could do this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2008 11:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Organicmachination, posted 07-03-2008 12:02 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 12:46 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2008 4:17 AM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 23 of 402 (473843)
07-03-2008 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Organicmachination
07-03-2008 12:02 AM


Evolutionists have fossils, few bones, and similarities among various species, but no proof that evolution is the answer as to how life began and multiplied to millions of various plant and animal life forms.
True science for the IDists/Creationists is discovering the wonders of God's creation, learning the cause and effect therein, and applying this to the good of mankind.
Edited by John 10:10, : mispelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Organicmachination, posted 07-03-2008 12:02 AM Organicmachination has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:37 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2008 8:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 24 of 402 (473844)
07-03-2008 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-03-2008 12:46 AM


What is of more use than a powerful theory?
A powerful "fact" is more useful than any theory.
Facts are what make scientists understand the world we live in, not theories.
When theories become facts, then you will have something to hang your hat on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 12:46 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2008 9:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 26 of 402 (473846)
07-03-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
07-03-2008 3:11 AM


Maybe you feel comfortable believing that this universe could spring into existance from something smaller than a pinhead without a Creator, but I do not. It takes great faith, or deception, to have such a belief. One of us is certainly wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 3:11 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 9:56 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 28 of 402 (473852)
07-03-2008 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
07-03-2008 9:37 AM


True science deals with how things "really" work from cause to effect, not theories about how you think they may work.
The wonders of science that are useful take cause and effects that can be known to a high degree of accuracy and apply them to the good of mankind.
Show me one good thing teaching the theory of evolution of man has done for the good of mankind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:37 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2008 9:58 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2008 10:19 AM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 35 of 402 (473867)
07-03-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
07-03-2008 9:56 AM


Why would a scientist prefer to start with a god and then look for evidence?
Try looking in Hebrews 11:6 for your answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 9:56 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 11:27 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 36 of 402 (473869)
07-03-2008 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coyote
07-03-2008 9:58 AM


Coyote writes: Sounds like you should leave science to the scientists; they're the ones who are qualified to determine what science is and how it should work.
John 10:10 writes: I have spent 44 years in the nuclear business, have worked on or at 1/3 of the 104 commercial nuclear plants now operating in the USA, and am now retired. I believe I understand the scientific principles of nuclear energy and how to go from the splitting of an atom to producing MWs of power as good as most here at this forum.
This is what true science is supposed to be about, understanding known phenomena from cause to effect, and harnessing these known facts for the good of mankind.
I believe those who do know their Creator can do this as well or better than those who do not.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 37 of 402 (473870)
07-03-2008 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
07-03-2008 9:59 AM


Dr Adequate writes: The facts are the things to be understood. The theories are the understanding of the facts.
John 10:10 writes: I sorry, but I'm not laughing, and neither are most scientists. When theories can be proven to a high degree of accuracy, then they may be moved from the realm of theory and speculation to a scientific principle that can be relied upon in all manner of engineering and medical processes. Until then theories in no way, shape or form truly understand the facts.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Granny Magda, posted 07-03-2008 12:59 PM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 38 of 402 (473871)
07-03-2008 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Brian
07-03-2008 10:23 AM


Brian writes: I'm suspecting that the '10.10' in John's name is his age, we'll know for sure if he changes it next month to 'John 10:11'.
John 10:10 writes: Try looking in John 10:27-28 to see how old I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 10:23 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 11:34 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 41 of 402 (473882)
07-03-2008 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
07-03-2008 11:27 AM


Brian writes: So, what you are essentially saying is that to please God you have to lie, ignore the evidence, and act like a simpleton? If you accomplish this then God will reward you?
John 10:10 writes: You quoted Heb 11:6 correctly, but did not understand it correctly. It says God "rewards those who earnestly seek Him." That means God proves Himself to those who follow the path of Heb 11:6.
You say, "Give me proof in God, then I will believe."
God says, "Believe first, then I will prove Myself to you."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 11:27 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 12:41 PM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 42 of 402 (473884)
07-03-2008 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Brian
07-03-2008 11:34 AM


Yes, I'm an eternal lifer. Look also in Post 36 and you will get a hint of how many earthly years I've been here.

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 Message 40 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 11:34 AM Brian has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 46 of 402 (473893)
07-03-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Brian
07-03-2008 12:41 PM


But this still doesn't account for the vast amount of evidence that supports evolution, ignoring this evidence doesn't make it go away.
There is a vast difference between looking at the evidence that "supposedly" supports the theory of evolution, and the proof that evolution actually works over billions of years, taking life from simple cell creatures to complex man.
True science looks at things that can be proven to a very degree of accuracy, not theories can that never be proven.
Have you read lately some of the "so-called scientific theories" that somehow sparked or brought the spark of life to our earth? Very unimpressive, belonging more to a Hollywood Si-Fi thriller than to true science.
Edited by John 10:10, : added quote box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 12:41 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 07-03-2008 1:38 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 07-03-2008 2:15 PM John 10:10 has replied

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