Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?

Why?We are talking about evolution, not creationist strawman versions.You need to forget everything you think you know about evolution, because it is not what evolution is.What the experiment shows is evolution: the change in hereditary traits from one generation to the next.So, you have a choice: retreat in denial and ignore reality, or try to understand reality.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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The evolutionary model has not nor ever be proven;

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Nothing in science is ever proven. If that's your standard, then nothing is science.However, the ToE has been tested as fully as any other scientific theory, I repeat, as fully tested as any other scientific theory. There is no description that you can provide of science as it is actually done by scientists in the real world that would exclude the ToE.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Hey, you've got your catchphrase, I've got mine. I think mine's snappier. This is extremely vague. What exactly are you trying to say here? Did you watch the video in Message 94?ERV's occur when retrovirus DNA is copied into sperm or egg cells which then go on to produce adult organisms. The process can only take place like this in those cells, not in fully adult organisms. Since Adam and Eve presumably never existed as sperm or egg cells (no parents), how did they receive their ERV's? Did God magically insert them at the fall? If so, why?Why make them look exactly like the retrovirus damage that can be experimentally observed today?Most importantly of all, why gives chimps some of the exact same ERV's as humans, especially since not all creatures share these particular ERV's. You say that "all God's creatures" were affected, yet, clearly, they were not all affected in the same way, with different species displaying different ERV's. So why make human and chimp ERV's so similar?Why would God make things look so very much as though they had evolved?Why would a supposedly loving God lie to us?

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Mutate and Survive

The information of the Foraminifera has been on my computer for over a year. I only checked the Archives at FSU to see if it had been updated.But do I Know anything? When it comes to science very little. What I do know is from reading paper's by Hawking, Turok, Brandenberger,
Carroll, Trodden, Kamionkowski, Liddle, Wiltshire, Kosowsky, Turner, Arnold, and Parker just to name a few. I have also picked up some things here on EvC from cavediver and Son Goku. Even a few things from yourself and others.What would it actually take for an apple to either stay where you put it in the air or fall upward on earth?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I don't know what you think the "scientific method" is, but it's simply discovering/proving how things are or came to be as they are. The evolutionary model can in no way, shape or form be called the "scientific method" because it cannot do this.

All plants and animals have the same Creator. It's your belief that they evolved and were not created, not mine.

You have shown that you are living in your own world, totally divorced from science and the scientific method, yet you are trying to tell those of us who actually do science what it is we should be doing.I'm sorry, but your are so disconnected from the realities of science that any further discussion with you on this topic is pointless.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

As I see it, John has two choices.He can assume that he knows everything, refuse to ask any questions or listen to what anyone says, and simply keep parroting the same errors he's already made.He can conclude that he might be mistaken, consider the things we're telling him, and think about revising some of his conclusions.I'm willing to make book on which choice he'll go with. Anyone wanna bet on the second option?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

You claim to have been an engineer but you don't know what the scientific method is? Are you serious?The evolutionary model is a theory, and as such, explains the diversity of species we see today. There are a number of aspects of evolutionary theory: natural selection, population dynamics, genetics, etc. that together form a mechanism that explains how evolution works. By studying the constituents of this mechanism, which are taken to be separate at the beginning, scientists have uncovered a vast menagerie of evidences that show us that they are all connected, and together indeed form such a mechanism.Science seeks to uncover the mechanisms by which natural processes occur. We first come up with a model, like evolution by natural selection, and then try and discover what the mechanisms are that make it possible. We do so by observing evidences in the present like ERVs and fossils.Do you understand what science does? Science can never prove anything that happened in the past with a hundred percent accuracy, but rather seeks to uncover evidence that such things did happen in the past. Scientists have uncovered these kinds of evidences in the case of evolution, and all it takes is an open mind to understand them.You seem to be up in flames about evolution, but you don't realize that your own creationist views are not verifiable either. Did you see God creating the Earth from beginning to end? No? Then your views too, are wrong. At least the science of evolution has pieces of evidence, as described above.

There is no science that proves theories. There are NO proven theories.Now you can either accept this fact and learn from it, or you can try to demonstrate that it is false.You would do this by presenting one (1) single theory from any field of science of your choice that is proven to be a fact.One single theory.Surely if you are correct there must be thousands of them, so this should not be difficult, even for a creationist that is unused, as most are, to the concept of actually substantiating claims and assertions, so take a whack at it:One single proven theory.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

What, is that it? Is that all you have to say?I'm sorry, but that's pathetic. Let's try again.Why do humans and chimps share endogenous retroviruses, if we did not evolve from a common ancestor?Why we anyone imagine that God planted these ERV's in Adam and Eve when ERV's only attach to sperm and egg cells?Why would God place such apparently misleading evidence? Remember Titus 1:2 (KJV)
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began".Look, if you don't have answers for these questions, that's OK. You don't have to be able to answer every question. However, if you have no answers it would seem only reasonable to admit to that and approach this whole topic with a slightly less know-it-all attitude. If you reply to this message, please either address the issue properly or just admit that you have no answers in the face of the evidence.

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Mutate and Survive

Your argument wins the day for me. You have demolished your opponents without once resorting to evidence or references to back up your claims. I am in awe of the skill with which you swept aside all their references and the accumulated evidence of tens of thousands of scientists over the past 150 years.I have become a believer in "true science" and together we will change the world forever.The best part is I will not have to do any more research, no more weeks in the field studying insects, no more trying to puzzle out their life histories, or trying to figure out their taxonomy. If I have a question all I have to do is ask you. You know everything. I am your unworthy but adoring fan.

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What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonYou can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

What part of "discovering/proving how things are or came to be as they are" do you not understand?

What part of "science isn't about proving" do you not understand?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

All of it. I seem to have a devil of a time proving things with 100% certainty, especially the part where I convince other entomologists that I have absolutely proved I'm right.The group of insects I have spent my life studying is dragonflies. There are many different species and each has remarkably complex mating behavior and morphology. For many years I have tried to figure out why there are so many differences between the species and how they came to be so complex.Now finally, with the tools of true science that you have explained to us, I will be able to prove something. Once something is proved with true science no one needs to study it further because all the answers have been proved. Soon all the answers about everything will be proved by true science and no one will have any need for further study. Just think of it....no more questions about anything! I feel so ashamed that I mistakenly thought science was fun, you know the thrill of discovery, or the mystery that you can't quite figure out but that teaches you so much in the pursuit of an answer.

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What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonYou can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley