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Author Topic:   expanding universe
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 24 (46449)
07-18-2003 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Beercules
07-18-2003 2:11 PM


If you add in a spurious cosmological constant (as Einstein did), you can end up with a static universe. Einstein called it the "biggest mistake of my life".
PE

This message is a reply to:
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dinoflagulates
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 24 (46455)
07-18-2003 3:27 PM


Thanks for the replies all, they explain a lot.
However I do wonder if it is known how much of the universe we do see. This probably cant be aswered because we obviously don't know much about what we can't see. Is there any principle which can be used as an indicator of what percentage of the universe we actually see or know about?

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 24 (46505)
07-19-2003 1:11 PM


Even with cosmological constant, stability isn't real, as it's only temporary.

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 24 (46506)
07-19-2003 1:12 PM


No, because we currently do not have any idea of how big the universe is. It may well be infinite. So until we know that answer, nothing is certain.

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dinoflagulates
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 24 (46524)
07-19-2003 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Beercules
07-19-2003 1:12 PM


Thanks for clearing that up.

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 21 of 24 (46666)
07-21-2003 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
07-18-2003 9:51 AM


Hello Brian,
I think you have not fully understood Quetzal's story about the balloon. It is very important to realize that the balloon is a two-dimensional metaphor for three-dimensional space. We, who live in space, know three spatial dimensions. In simple terms they are: forward/backward, left/right and up/down. The balloon metaphor assumes that we give up one dimension, namely up/down, in order to make it simpler to visualize the idea of an expanding universe. You are to imagine that you live on the surface of the balloon. You know only forward/backward and left/right, i.e. you can only move in the plane of the balloon surface. For you, there's no up and down, you can't even imagine what up and down are like. You yourself are also completely flat. You have no knowledge of the inside of the balloon, nor of the outside. For the purpose of this thought experiment, they do not exist.
Now, suppose the balloon surface is dotted with ink spots and is slowly being inflated, thus stretching its surface. It is absolutely irrelevant that, because of the inflation of the balloon, its surface continuously occupies another position in 3D space. The only effect of the inflation that is of concern here is the stretching of the rubber surface. Remember, the surface of the balloon is the only kind of space you know. The surface is curved in 3D, but you won't notice this, being a 2D creature. So, if you look in one of the directions it is possible for you to look in, namely any direction along the balloon's surface, you will find that every ink spot you can see is receding from you. That's why you start imagining that you are at the center of it all. However, this will be the case wherever you are on the surface of the balloon, and there is no privileged "center of the universe": wherever you are, the ink spots are always receding from you. They are also all receding from each other. And the farther away they are from each other to begin with, the more rubber there is in between them being stretched, and so the faster they will recede from each other.
The only thing left remaining for the analogy to instruct you about the inflation of the real universe is to once again add a dimension to the overall thought experiment. Thus, our universe is like a four (3+1) dimensional balloon which is being inflated. The 2D surface of the balloon becomes 3D space as we know it, and it stretches not just in a (curved) 2D plane, but in 3D space. (Curved? Maybe, but if so, in 4D.) The stretching takes place all over the universe, just like the rubber of the balloon was stretched everywhere between the ink spots.
If we extend the metaphor even further, so as to answer the question of what the universe expands into, the answer would be: into the fourth dimension, wherever that is. But as it is, in modern physics, the fourth dimension is usually reserved for time. And although it is not so strange to say that the universe expands in time, this is not quite satisfying. However, there are theories in physics that talk of seven other dimensions. These are not stretched out, like our normal three dimensions, or timelike like the fourth, but somehow folded inward, or 'shrunken' to infinitesimal sizes. Maybe that's what space expands 'into', making it seem as though it expands into itself. Maybe the expansion is fractal: like a coastline becoming ever more crinkly, and therefore longer, without ever enclosing more area. At any rate, if the universe is all there is, then logic dictates that there cannot be anything outside of it for it to expand into, that much we can be certain of.
Are you still there?
{edited to correct typo}
[This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 07-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 07-18-2003 9:51 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 07-21-2003 2:43 PM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 24 by :æ:, posted 07-25-2003 1:39 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 24 (46718)
07-21-2003 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Parasomnium
07-21-2003 10:38 AM


Hi Parasomnium,
Thankyou very much for the information, this coupled with the link that PE posted has gievn me a much better grasp on the idea.
Although I do understand the explanations, I wont pretend that I fully appreciate the ideas, but I do feel much better about the topic now.
Thankyou for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate the time you took to repsond and you have probably preserbved my sanity for a little longer!
Cheers!
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Parasomnium, posted 07-21-2003 10:38 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 23 of 24 (46856)
07-22-2003 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
07-21-2003 2:43 PM


Glad to have been of help, Brian.
Cheers.

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:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7210 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 24 of 24 (47440)
07-25-2003 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Parasomnium
07-21-2003 10:38 AM


That was an excellent description of the balloon analogy, Parasomnium.
I only wanted to weigh in to add another level of confusion to this discussion.
Right now there is at least one, and perhaps several budding theories that interpret our observations in terms of a conspanding universe instead of an expanding universe. In these models, the universe does not necessarily get larger over time (which solves the problem of "what is the universe expanding into?"), but is instead continuously added to "from the inside," in plain terms. More specifically, each state of the universe is contextually contained by the state preceding it so that over time the past states of the universe seem "smaller" in relation to the present state of the universe (which is now observed to consist of not only the past state of the universe, but also the collection of space-time events that actualized between the past time and the present time), yet the past states of the universe are in fact "larger" since these new events are added to within the context of those previous states. The easiest way to imagine it is to visualize an infinite and continual inscription of concentric circles, the next one always within the last, with our observational focus at the center, which is the present moment, and the outermost circle having a theoretically infinite radius and representing the entire cosmos.
Personally, I think that any distinction between an expanding universe and a conspanding universe is arbitrary because I think once relativistic effects are completely accounted for the two become indistinguishable.
Blessings,
::

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