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Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 301 of 365 (473666)
07-01-2008 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by starman
07-01-2008 4:13 PM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
"Elaborate hoaxes" "forgeries" and "Conspiracies" are your constructions, not mine. Take your strawmen elsewhere.

The dates cannot be substantiated. The authorships cannot be substantiated. That doesn't mean there were hoaxes going on. I would put it more in the category of wishful thinking - just as you are doing. The fact that texts are "revered" and part of the canon means little. A lot of people revere and canonize the Book of Morman. Does that mean it has to be true in a literal sense? No.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 4:13 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 5:27 PM deerbreh has replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 365 (473668)
07-01-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by deerbreh
07-01-2008 5:21 PM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
"Elaborate hoaxes" "forgeries" and "Conspiracies" are your constructions, not mine. Take your strawmen elsewhere.
Terms for what would have had to have happened if your unsupportable dream doubts about a solidly evidenced book were valid at all.

As it stands, the dates cannot be unsubstantiated!!!

Try it, and see, rather than allude stuff, you don't seem to have much of a grip on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2008 5:21 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 9:32 AM starman has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 303 of 365 (474253)
07-07-2008 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by starman
07-01-2008 5:27 PM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
Terms for what would have had to have happened if your unsupportable dream doubts about a solidly evidenced book were valid at all.

No. You do not get to characterize the arguments of others - that is the logical fallacy known as the "strawman argument." There are reasons other than conspiracies and hoaxes why the text of any ancient book should not be taken literally - epic myth for example.

quote:
As it stands, the dates cannot be unsubstantiated!!!

Classic logical fallacy of someone without a solid argument - demanding that someone "prove a negative". Sorry - the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that an event occured at a certain time in a certain place - not on the skeptic.

Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 5:27 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:35 AM deerbreh has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 304 of 365 (474257)
07-07-2008 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by ramoss
07-01-2008 2:53 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
ramoss writes:

I see people taking vague symbolism, and reinventing what it was meant to portray. When someone sagely quotes this vague symbolism, and insist it means 'thus and thus', sorry, but it isn't clear their claim is valid.

I have yet to see any prophecy that does not do that.

You seem to be looking for the foretelling of a future event that is yet to take place that is stated in the Bible.

I would like to point out a couple.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If you never die this one is incorrect.
If one day you stand before Jesus in judgment it is true, and you will remember this post at that time.

II Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter said the universe was going to melt.
This was predicted over 2k years ago and today we have many scientist that believe that is going to happen. Many don't they think it is going to just run out of energy and get cold.

If the universe doesn't melt then Peter was wrong.

There is one problem with this prophesy, you and I probably won't be on earth to see if it comes true or not.

And there will be plenty trying to explain it away as it happens.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 308 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:30 AM ICANT has taken no action

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 305 of 365 (474327)
07-07-2008 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by ICANT
07-07-2008 10:32 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
quote:
You seem to be looking for the foretelling of a future event that is yet to take place that is stated in the Bible.

I would like to point out a couple.


I think it is more like what skeptics need is an example of something that was predicted actually having occured and someone using the scripture to predict it before it happened - not something yet to occur, as we can't verify the future - and not something that happened yesterday and then someone saying, "Oh yeah, that was predicted in the Bible" followed by a long explanation of how this means that and this is symbolic of that, blah blah blah.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 10:32 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 6:08 PM deerbreh has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 306 of 365 (474347)
07-07-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by deerbreh
07-07-2008 4:35 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:

I think it is more like what skeptics need is an example of something that was predicted actually having occured and someone using the scripture to predict it before it happened

Jesus made the following prediction 39 years before the fact.
Matthew recorded it for our benefit.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

History records that this event took place in 70 AD.

Jeremiah 9:16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Jeremiah prophesies that Israel will be scattered and many would die.
Millions of Israelites have died in Germany and other countries.

Jeremiah 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Jeremiah prophesied God would bring the children of Jacob back home.

For 2000 years they had no home until 1947.

Today they exist in their own country.

Now if you can't be satisfied with predictions like these you will just have to wait around and see if mine comes true.

I could go out on a limb and predict that in the future we will have a worldwide government. The man that is in charge will make a treaty with Israel and those who want to destroy Israel. The Temple will be rebuilt and Temple Worship restored. After a while He will stand in the Temple and declare himself to be God and that the world must worship him. From Matthew chapter 24.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:35 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:58 AM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 310 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:36 AM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 313 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2008 8:04 AM ICANT has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 307 of 365 (474367)
07-08-2008 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by ICANT
07-07-2008 6:08 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
And do we know that the Gospel writer WROTE it down before it (temple destruction in 70 AD) happened? No. I rather think you proved my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 6:08 PM ICANT has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:39 AM deerbreh has replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 308 of 365 (474371)
07-08-2008 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by ICANT
07-07-2008 10:32 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
quote:
Peter said the universe was going to melt.
This was predicted over 2k years ago and today we have many scientist that believe that is going to happen. Many don't they think it is going to just run out of energy and get cold.

If the universe doesn't melt then Peter was wrong.


He never said it was going to be a natural melt!

quote:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If you never die this one is incorrect.
If one day you stand before Jesus in judgment it is true, and you will remember this post at that time.


That is telling us how it works, not a prophesy. It is appointed for such and such to happen..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 10:32 AM ICANT has taken no action

starman
Inactive Member


Message 309 of 365 (474372)
07-08-2008 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by deerbreh
07-07-2008 9:32 AM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
No. You do not get to characterize the arguments of others - that is the logical fallacy known as the "strawman argument.

No. You do not get to tell me when not to characterize the arguments of others - that is the logical fallacy known as the "strawman argument.

I call em like I see em.

quote:
There are reasons other than conspiracies and hoaxes why the text of any ancient book should not be taken literally - epic myth for example.

If you come up with any reasons let us know, now. Meanwhile, I have no reason not to take the bible as powerful evidence, of some real force that is present, in fulfilled prophesies.

quote:
Classic logical fallacy of someone without a solid argument - demanding that someone "prove a negative". Sorry - the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that an event occured at a certain time in a certain place - not on the skeptic.
So, who gets to say who has the positive, and who has the negative!? You? Don't think so. That is a plumb wrong notion fallacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 9:32 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 10:47 AM starman has replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 310 of 365 (474375)
07-08-2008 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by ICANT
07-07-2008 6:08 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Good one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 6:08 PM ICANT has taken no action

starman
Inactive Member


Message 311 of 365 (474376)
07-08-2008 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by deerbreh
07-08-2008 12:58 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Basically, yes we do. Jesus died a certain year. Check your calendar to get the general time, it is set to Him after all, the year of our Lord!!!! Jesus was the one that prophesied it!! Some say He alluded to a Daniel prophesy the prophesied the same!! Are you going to now try to make Daniel after 70 AD as well!!??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:58 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Brian, posted 07-08-2008 3:42 AM starman has taken no action
 Message 315 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 11:55 AM starman has taken no action

Brian
Member (Idle past 4193 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 312 of 365 (474388)
07-08-2008 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by starman
07-08-2008 2:39 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
What is the date of the earliest extant text of 'Matthew's' Gospel?

it is set to Him after all, the year of our Lord!!!

Don't you find it strange that we don't know Jesus year of birth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:39 AM starman has taken no action

ramoss
Member
Posts: 3225
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 313 of 365 (474401)
07-08-2008 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by ICANT
07-07-2008 6:08 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
It's funny how Matthew didn't record the prediction of Jesus until after the fact. Have you ever thought that Matthew might have stretched the truth there?

As for the nation of Israel, that is known as a 'self fulfilling prophecy'. It was predicted, so people worked to it. On the other hand, it does not meet the criteria of the predicted Israel, since it isn't under a king.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 6:08 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2008 12:58 PM ramoss has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 314 of 365 (474409)
07-08-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by starman
07-08-2008 2:35 AM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
So, who gets to say who has the positive, and who has the negative!? You? Don't think so. That is a plumb wrong notion fallacy.

Direct quote from Starman:

quote:
As it stands, the dates cannot be unsubstantiated!!!

Classic example of asking that someone "prove a negative". Your words. Doesn't matter what I say. You impaled yourself on the logical fallacy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:35 AM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by starman, posted 07-09-2008 1:45 AM deerbreh has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 315 of 365 (474419)
07-08-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by starman
07-08-2008 2:39 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
quote:
Basically, yes we do. Jesus died a certain year. Check your calendar to get the general time, it is set to Him after all, the year of our Lord!!!! Jesus was the one that prophesied it!! Some say He alluded to a Daniel prophesy the prophesied the same!!

Basic logic eludes you doesn't it? The fact that we may know that Jesus died before AD 70 does not mean he actually made the prediction. We only have the the gospel of Matthew account that he made the prediction and we do not know that the book of Matthew was written before AD 70. People's memories play tricks on them, particularly when they are trying to "build up" the reputation of a revered leader as a prophet. We don't even know for sure WHO wrote the book of Matthew, WHEN it was written, or which words are part of the original account and which words might have been ADDED later by some overzealous scribes trying to enhance the reputation of Jesus as a prophet. You seem to have the quaint notion that the disciples were following Jesus around taking notes in their little spiral bound stenographer's notebooks. Unlikely, to say the least. The disciples of Jesus were a rough hewn lot - likely for the most part illiterate. The disciple Matthew was supposedly a tax collector, we do not know that he was literate. It was not the prestigious occupation of a scholarly man - more like the patronage job of a political hack. There is some disagreement as to whether he was the actual author of the gospel bearing his name. 'Both the style of Greek used and the means of describing events lead some to conclude that the author of the gospel was not a companion of the historic Jesus. Some use the designation "Matthew the Evangelist" to refer to the anonymous gospel author, and "Matthew the Apostle" to refer to the Biblical figure described.' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_the_Evangelist)
In any event ascribing those words to Jesus cannot be proven one way or the other, so it cannot count as a verified prediction.

quote:
Are you going to now try to make Daniel after 70 AD as well!!??

No. And why would I? It is immaterial as to whether Jesus actually said it or not. And it is quite a stretch to say that Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Again, make your own arguments. Stop trying to make mine. Besides being the logical fallacy of a strawman, it is quite rude.

In any event, predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was not exactly a brilliant prophesy for someone in the time of Daniel or in the first century. Jerusalem had lots of enemies in both periods and one thing that victorious enemies did in both periods was knock down cities and temples in a scorched earth policy when there were wars or rebellions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:39 AM starman has taken no action

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