Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible is literally true, but each detail is not.
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 31 of 88 (474496)
07-08-2008 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Archer Opteryx
07-04-2008 10:21 AM


Re: Library
i cant go that far. the Isrealites wrote much of it in a continueing history as they went. they were a literate people with thier own language, while i belive much of it is myth, it is still some of the best documented data that has survived that we have from back then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Archer Opteryx, posted 07-04-2008 10:21 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by yomommahey, posted 07-09-2008 10:10 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
yomommahey
Junior Member (Idle past 5740 days)
Posts: 2
From: Temecula, Cali, USA
Joined: 07-09-2008


Message 32 of 88 (474643)
07-09-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Artemis Entreri
07-08-2008 9:16 PM


Re: Library
no, just give it up, the bible overall makes no sense, thats the truth. becus i know from reading history, thats not what the people meant when they saw the flood, they thought it covered the whole earth no lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-08-2008 9:16 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
gregrjones
Junior Member (Idle past 5655 days)
Posts: 4
From: kettering, ohio, u.s.a.
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 33 of 88 (484186)
09-26-2008 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-22-2008 1:14 AM


Dynamic vs. Plenary Inspiration
This is not a new theory, but it doesn't seem to be well known among many people (Christians or non).
Its called the dynamic inspiration. Dynamic inspiration says that the Word of God was revealed to men throughout history. Those men wrote down their experiences/observations in their own words in the scriptures, just like you or I would write down something.
The alternative view is called the plenary view. It says that the Bible itself is the Word of God and therefore every word has to be inerrant.
I'm a Christian who believes in the dynamic view. What's fascinating to me about the dynamic view is that if one just takes the Bible and reads it from a historian's perspective, one can't explain its claims away.
For example, you have four writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke & John who all write about Jesus's life ministry. They all agree that He performed miracles, even resurrected from the dead. They agree on the essentials of His teachings, they just differ on details that are inconsequential (details like whether or not Jesus told the Disciples to take money bag and cloaks with them when they went out two by two).
This (along with the witness of the other books of the New Testament) is enough for the object observer to NOT be able to conclude that the Bible is a product of a grand conspiracy. After all, the writer's gained neither power or money from their claims. In fact they were mostly martyred.
And one can't claim that the author's were delusional because delusions don't hit collectively and in sync with one another to such a degree of specificity.
The burden of proof, as I see it, is for a nonbeliever to try and explain away the text.
What was the motive of the writers? Why DOES the Bible exist?
I've never heard a nonbeliever give a credible alternative. The best that I've heard is that the church (which didn't even come into power until Constantine) wrote it as a justification for their power. But if that was the case, given that this church was what we would call Catholic, why was one central hallmark of the Protestant reformation the fact that this church would seemingly discourage your average lay person from even reading the Bible?
This Divine inspiration thing is a distracting red herring. Believing it to be the words of men is enough for me to believe in Christ and His teachings. And yes, I believe in the Word of God. But I believe that when the Bible speaks of the Word of God (ex: Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet") it is not talking about the scriptures, but rather God's word as He has revealed it to men. We can SEE this in the scriptures but that's different than them BEING the Word of God.
I can even see this idea in the words of Jesus. Notice in the Gospels, that He will often say, "Did not Moses write?" Why wouldn't He instead say, "Didn't God say?" if He held to the plenary view.
BTW, for more information on dynamic vs. plenary inspiration, check out this link:
Error 404 - Not Found
Edited by gregrjones, : No reason given.
Edited by gregrjones, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-22-2008 1:14 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 10-22-2008 11:14 PM gregrjones has not replied

  
!_! 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 34 of 88 (486578)
10-22-2008 4:10 PM


Edited by AdminModulous, : Hidden spam

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 35 of 88 (486594)
10-22-2008 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by gregrjones
09-26-2008 9:05 PM


Re: Dynamic vs. Plenary Inspiration
There is a very easy reason for the synoptic gospels. Mark wrote down a story using the Homeric tradition, and Matthew and Luke copied from Mark and some oral traditions (or the mysterious Q). Matthew and Luke did not copy from each other, which is why their nativity stories are mutually exclusive, as well as their geologies.
John is another beast all together. The GOJ was redacted on at least 4 times. It was called a gnostic work by one church father, and called an anti-gnostic work by another.
It isn't a 'grand conspiracy'.. it is just a developing tradition where one author copies another, then having the filtering process of
a central authority go through them, and change them for 'theological correctness'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by gregrjones, posted 09-26-2008 9:05 PM gregrjones has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 36 of 88 (488989)
11-20-2008 6:07 PM


You are missing the main point of what the Bible is all about and the message it conveys.
The Bible is God's love letter to mankind revealing how God has chosen to redeem sinner man from his sin and bring sinner man into right relationship with God.
In all matters dealing with God's salvation for sinner man through the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible is true.
In all matters dealing with the jots and tittles of the Bible, there can be liberty to believe otherwise.

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 88 (489042)
11-22-2008 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-22-2008 1:14 AM


the story of a worldwide flood is not unique to the bible... there are hundreds of very similar stories told by different nations around the world
almost every nation and religion on earth teach it to some degree
i agree with you that some things in the bible are not literal but figurative... but i dont think the flood is one of them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-22-2008 1:14 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 11-22-2008 10:33 AM Peg has replied
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 11-22-2008 11:05 AM Peg has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 38 of 88 (489048)
11-22-2008 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
11-22-2008 5:45 AM


such as?
there are hundreds of very similar stories told by different nations around the world.
I see this claim a lot on the Net, yet it is never supported. So, perhaps you can point us to a few stories from around the world that are 'very similar' to the Bible version.
I my experience, the flood stories from around the world differ greatly from each other, and especially the two flood myths in the Bible.
Look at some of the Phillipino flood myths, they are nothing like Noah's adventure.
Then, of course, there are many nations who do not have a flood myth.
Finally, we have the archaeological record that falsifies the biblical flood.
A worldwide flood as described in the Bible has been demonstrated to be untrue by every investigative discipline that we have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 5:45 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 8:31 PM Brian has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 39 of 88 (489049)
11-22-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
11-22-2008 5:45 AM


It is only a matter of time before someone makes the claim that you just made. I've heard this many many many many times before.
Let us start with this.
Peg writes:
the story of a worldwide flood is not unique to the bible... there are hundreds of very similar stories told by different nations around the world
Can you provide some kind of reference(s) for this claim? While it is true that there are various "world wide" flood myths found in various cultures around the world, they are only a hand full, NOT hundreds.
almost every nation and religion on earth teach it to some degree
Um, no. Most of the nations and religions that have ever existed never had a flood myth. Again, YOU make the positive claim. YOU give the support.
i agree with you that some things in the bible are not literal but figurative... but i dont think the flood is one of them
I want to discuss a little about the possible and more simple explanation for the hand full of various cultures who have had some kind of "world wide" flood myth. Can you think of a single other disaster that (1) could destroy an entire civilization (or at least bring it to its knees) and (2) happens more than just a few times in a generation? Where I'm from, I read about floodings every year on the news.
To the people of ancient times, the land where they grew up was literally the entire world TO THEM. If they lived in an area that had the potential for regular disastrous floodings, it does not take the imagination far to come up with a "world wide" flood that wiped out everything.
If what I just said didn't stick, try to think of it this way. How come major ancient cultures like the Greek, Chinese, Mongolian, etc. never had a "world wide" flood myth? All of these cultures' histories pre-date the biblical flood myth. You'd think that someone would have noticed about a flood that covered the highest of mountains.
The closest single historical events I can think of that were almost universally recorded by ancient cultures all around the world were great volcanic eruptions. For example, the santorini eruption happened in the Mediterranian but it affected areas as far as China and its effects recorded by various cultures all around the northern hemisphere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 5:45 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2008 11:19 AM Taz has replied
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 9:08 PM Taz has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 40 of 88 (489051)
11-22-2008 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taz
11-22-2008 11:05 AM


How come major ancient cultures like the Greek, Chinese, Mongolian, etc. never had a "world wide" flood myth?
Actually, all three of those cultures DID have a flood myth, nothing like the Bible, but a flood myth nonetheless.
Flood Stories from Around the World
Flood Stories from Around the World
Flood Stories from Around the World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 11-22-2008 11:05 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Taz, posted 11-22-2008 12:02 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 41 of 88 (489053)
11-22-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Asgara
11-22-2008 11:19 AM


I didn't say flood myth. I said world wide flood myth, especially one that supposedly killed off everyone but 2 people.
If you're talking about just a flood myth, everybody's got one. Heck, I got my own flood myth about how after 4 hours of driving from out of state a few months ago I had to wander around my town looking for a route that hadn't been flooded yet to get to my house. My neighborhood was literally at the top of a hill which surroundings had been flooded.
The explanation for that is already given in my previous post. Flood is the only single devastating event that happens regularly. Again, where I come from, I read about floodings every year. When a culture wanted to create a myth involving large number of deaths by the wrath of some kind of supernatural being(s), it doesn't take much of an imagination to refer back to floodings simply because it happens regularly and everytime it happens it seems to the victims like the world has come to an end.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2008 11:19 AM Asgara has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 42 of 88 (489056)
11-22-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-22-2008 1:14 AM


The God's Biological Witness
Taz writes:
In this thread, I offer a compromise. What if the Bible is literally true and yet the details can be less than literal ..... What do you think?
Religious Jews and scholars of that time did not have the scientific knowledge that we take for granted, so they did not think of the world in scientific terms or descriptions. Instead they attempted to conceptualize the world in terms of what they knew, as we currently do, and usually described it visually. Generally speaking, not much has changed ...
Understanding this takes nothing away from the revelation of the God's Word in scripture. It simply acknowledges that authors are children of their days, and that views expressing and depicting the makeup of the spirit and flesh are at the mercy of perception. One describes experiences in ways one can, in the times one lives. One understands them in the same relative way.
Perhaps we are called to recognize and respond to the incarnated Word of God in scripture. It may be only then, in the recognition and response, that scripture becomes the living and active Word of the God.
Let me address the issue of literalism from one perspective. This view sees scripture as a pliable witness by a living community of faith invested in the God’s Self-revelation in history. That is, scripture records the witness of the living community of faith invested in the God and His Work in the world. As authoritative scripture for the community, the God also uses that witness to reveal himself to future generations, at the same time that those future generations may also encounter the God in new ways at new points in history. This affirms a very dynamic view of scripture as well as the God’s actions in the world, and rejects the reductionist portrayal of scripture as the absolute Truth and paradigm for everything that we want to know, including past history (ie. The Flud).
In other words, the God and His Truths are innately inerrant; our perception of His scribes perception ... not so much.
There is no reason for scripture to end with the new testament authors, as the living community of faith has not ended. Scripture is simply the witness that the living community of faith has borne to or about the God's revelation; a joined effort between humans and the God focused towards uniting the spiritual and the biological worlds. It captures moments in history, and explains them as well as they need be ...
It is, for all intents and purposes, the evolution of reality.
As far as I can tell anyway ...
Take it with a grain of salt.
One Love

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary
The Apostle of the Skeptics writes:
"...picture me alone in that room ... night after night, feeling ... the steady, unrelenting approach of Him
whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-22-2008 1:14 AM Taz has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 88 (489060)
11-22-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Brian
11-22-2008 10:33 AM


Re: such as?
[quote"Brian"]I see this claim a lot on the Net, yet it is never supported. So, perhaps you can point us to a few stories from around the world that are 'very similar' to the Bible version.[/quote]
Hi Brian,
In the book Myths of Creation, Philip Freund estimates that over 500 Flood legends are told by more than 250 tribes and peoples. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states: “Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 .
the Maya in Mexico and Central America had their Flood legend that involved a universal deluge, or haiyococab, which means “water over the earth.”
the Incas had their Flood legends. British writer Harold Osborne states: “Perhaps the most ubiquitous features in South American myth are the stories of a deluge
Aztec mythology spoke of four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by giants. (That is another reminder of the Nephilim, the giants referred to in the Bible at Genesis 6:4.) It included a primeval flood legend in which “the waters above merge with those below, obliterating the horizons and making of everything a timeless cosmic ocean.”
The book China”A History in Art tells us that one of the ancient rulers of China was Y, “the conqueror of the Great Flood. Y channeled flood waters into rivers and seas to resettle his people.” Mythology expert Joseph Campbell wrote about the Chinese “Period of the Great Ten,” saying: “To this important age, which terminates in a Deluge
even the Australian Aboriginals have flood legends in their 'dreamtime mythology'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 11-22-2008 10:33 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-23-2008 11:02 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 44 of 88 (489061)
11-22-2008 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taz
11-22-2008 11:05 AM


Taz wrote: "How come major ancient cultures like the Greek, Chinese, Mongolian, etc. never had a "world wide" flood myth?"
its notable that the Greeks have myths and legends that resemble the Genesis account of 'pre-flood' conditions. the time when giants and gods walked the earth.
the chinese have legends of their emperor Yu who was said to conquer the great flood and save his people...
the mongols dont have a flood legend that resembles the bible. The mongols leader was a shaman and their stories and practices vary from place to place and from shaman to shaman
i do appreciate what you saying though, the legends themselves do not necessarily equate to proof of a flood.
Edited by Peg, : error fixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 11-22-2008 11:05 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2008 9:24 PM Peg has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 45 of 88 (489062)
11-22-2008 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
11-22-2008 9:08 PM


Flood legends
i do appreciate what you saying though, the legends themselves do not necessarily equate to proof of a flood.
The problem with flood stories is that they are horribly nonspecific, both as to what occurred and when it occurred--if it occurred at all!
What is the most telling is that the purported global flood is placed at about 4,350 years ago and there is a mountain of evidence that shows no such flood happened at that time (in fact, there is no evidence for a worldwide flood at any time).
Creationists refuse to accept the scientific evidence and cling to any hint of support for such a flood. These worldwide flood myths are a classic example.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 9:08 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Peg, posted 11-22-2008 10:14 PM Coyote has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024