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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 16 of 531 (474487)
07-08-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
07-08-2008 11:53 AM


Their teachings proved true.
As youngsters, these people were taught that if they showed limitless faith, and they spoke to the masses, and they spoke in tongues, and they let the holy spirit enter their bodies and enthrall them in ecstasy, they would be showered with worldly goods. So they went out and they spoke to the masses of their limitless faith, and they spoke in tongues, and they were enthralled with ecstasy and they are showered with worldly goods. What's not to believe?

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 17 of 531 (474488)
07-08-2008 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
07-08-2008 12:39 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
Phat writes:
I think deep down that God is going to surprise a lot of people.
Those who will be the most surprised are those who think everyone else is going to be surprised.
"deep down" is a pun, right?

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 531 (474531)
07-09-2008 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by AnswersInGenitals
07-08-2008 8:01 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
AIG writes:
"deep down" is a pun, right?
Its a gift I have, this unintentional humor thing.
Comedian Lewis Black also has an opinion on televangelists.
One question, though. When Benny Hinn "annoints" the crowd, as seen here are they:
1) Brainwashed?
2) set ups?(they are paid to pretend to fall?)
3) Power of suggestion? (One guy falls so everyone thinks they must fall?)
Edited by Phat, : added
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 531 (474532)
07-09-2008 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
07-09-2008 6:45 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Any reason for not including a satanic option?

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 Message 18 by Phat, posted 07-09-2008 6:45 AM Phat has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 531 (474561)
07-09-2008 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
07-09-2008 7:00 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Iano writes:
Any reason for not including a satanic option?
OK.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 writes:
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.(Wycliffe Commentary)
These Satanic ministers partake of their father's perversity (cf. John 8:44), parade in his theological paraphernalia, and perish in his predestinated perdition. How do such men, still with us today, disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness?
(1) By rejecting God's righteousness while insisting on the merit of man's righteousness.
(2) By denying the fatal effects of sin on man's original righteousness while insisting that man's nature is still basically righteous.
(3) By nullifying the imputed righteousness of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 5:21) while insisting that his death still has some moral effect on mankind.
(4) By questioning the absolute righteousness of Christ while insisting that his life, though imperfect, is still worthy of our imitation.
Does that summarize a literalist view?
I will agree that if we are in an actual spiritual war of sorts as a species on this planet, and if Satan is alive and is actively seeking to fight through us when we allow it, he would use ministers in the church to achieve his aims.
I'm just not sure that I believe all of that any more. You would do well to pray for me, Ian.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 531 (474605)
07-09-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
07-09-2008 7:00 AM


Is Hinn's the one true religion?
I'm surprised that you didn't ask the much more obvious question: why didn't he include the option that the power of the Lord Jesus was flowing through Hinn's fingers and embracing the true believers.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 22 of 531 (474607)
07-09-2008 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Hi NJ
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Or even better, I'll bet these people don't even believe in God or the authority of the Bible. Because surely they would be extremely aware that they are crooks and swindlers, the same kind that Jesus warned about in the Bible. Would they be that bold to risk certain perdition, or are they merely trolls who act this way just so they can swindle your money?
I truly hate to disappoint you but they actually believe they are doing the will of God just like those folks who flew the planes into the twin towers.
They are totally convinced that the way they are doing it is the only way there is, everybody else is heretics. They are preaching the true Gospel.
You remember the scripture that He would allow them to believe a lie and be damned.
I have met some of those people in person starting with Oral Roberts.
But he was not in the class with Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer.
Benny and Joyce make over a hundred million per year from donations. I have no figures for Joel but considering his books probably a lot.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-08-2008 11:42 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 23 of 531 (474608)
07-09-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
07-09-2008 6:45 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Hi Phat, long time no chat.
Phat writes:
One question, though. When Benny Hinn "annoints" the crowd, as seen here are they:
1) Brainwashed?
2) set ups?(they are paid to pretend to fall?)
3) Power of suggestion? (One guy falls so everyone thinks they must fall?)
All of the above.
Plus the man has actual supernatural powers.
You remember the story about the magicians in Egypt when Moses cast down his rod.
The God of this world Satan has a lot of power and he does not mind sharing it with those who will do his bidding.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 531 (474609)
07-09-2008 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
07-08-2008 1:15 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
it has always occurred to me that if a man can fool tens of thousands of people with what seem to us to be lame-ass arguments, then surely he can also fool himself by the same arguments.
I think it's worse than that for these clowns. I think they are aware that they are swindling people, as evidenced by their failure to audit themselves. That would indicate that they are aware that it is wrong.
these people tend to preach the "prosperity gospel". Now, if they were getting rich by banging away about what Jesus said about the rich, camels and needles eyes, and so forth, then we could believe that they were hypocrites.
Yes, I am aware that they manipulate scripture to their own end. I think it is very much intentional. For instance, many people have called Joel Osteen out on his extravagant message. His response is totally unscriptural, even after somebody quotes specific passages to him. In his mind, God just wants us all to be rich. I don't, however, believe that he honestly believes that. I think in all honesty he is a crook, and knows in his heart he's a crook.
As for NJ's point about "if they know the Bible that well", are we convinced that they are real Bible scholars and deep theologians? It's like saying: "Creationists can't know science that well and be so oblivious to not know when they are clearly in the wrong".
I think in that instance they search to find compelling reasons why there way is the truth. The truth, in their mind, can only be based on the Bible. That's not science. That is not following the trail of evidence. That is leading evidence to wherever you want to support a clear agenda. I don't think they are lying, however, at least not the majority. I believe their sincerity, I just think they are wrong.
One should also never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. I have seen an avowed Christian (a Tax Protestor looney) explain that Jesus' bon mot about "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" means that it is wrong to pay taxes ('cos everything belongs to God or something like that); and an avowed Christian with a mean streak a mile wide explain that Jesus' command to be "gentle as doves" means that he should "fight viciously" (because that's what doves do in the mating season, he claims).
Yeah, that's pretty silly. You have try really hard to bastardize that passage in order to come up with that little pearl of wisdom.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 531 (474623)
07-09-2008 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
07-09-2008 4:33 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
They are totally convinced that the way they are doing it is the only way there is, everybody else is heretics. They are preaching the true Gospel.
You sure about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLV4zjfwQxY

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

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 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2008 4:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 26 of 531 (474634)
07-09-2008 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2008 6:03 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
You sure about that?
Oral was, Paul Crouch is and so is Benny Hinn. The rest I haven't met. These were and are totally convinced. I would assume those that are their students and who fellowship with them are also but not necessarily. They may be in it just for the money.
If you tell a lie over and over it will eventually become the truth as you know it. If you can convince yourself you can convince others.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2008 6:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 198 by Phat, posted 10-21-2011 8:50 AM ICANT has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 531 (475178)
07-13-2008 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ICANT
07-09-2008 9:28 PM


Few Are Chosen
How many of the televangelists and radio personalities that claim to be ministers of the Gospel would you say are on the level?

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 Message 26 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2008 9:28 PM ICANT has replied

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 28 of 531 (475186)
07-13-2008 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
07-13-2008 9:38 PM


Re: Few Are Chosen
Phat writes:
How many of the televangelists and radio personalities that claim to be ministers of the Gospel would you say are on the level?
All that don't ask for your money.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 07-13-2008 9:38 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 07-13-2008 11:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 531 (475192)
07-13-2008 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
07-08-2008 2:07 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
PaulK writes:
Buzsaw has no problem misrepresenting the Bible, while boasting of being an expert in Bible prophecy and claiming to be an honest man.
Maybe these guys are the same way. Is that honest, or not ?
Mind you, Paul never looses a debate. It's that the debate counterpart is a liar whose opposing POV is a misrepresentation.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Restate message

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 531 (475196)
07-13-2008 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
07-13-2008 10:20 PM


Re: Few Are Chosen
ICant writes:
Phat writes:
How many of the televangelists and radio personalities that claim to be ministers of the Gospel would you say are on the level?
All that don't ask for your money.
Of course no televangelist needs money to preach the gospel on TV or radio. The stations just dole out the air time to them. I'm sure Billy Graham would attest to that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 07-13-2008 10:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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