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Author Topic:   Name The City
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 126 (474651)
07-09-2008 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
10-01-2003 4:26 AM


Re: Prophecies
PaulK writes:
As I've pointed out even your distorted reading is not a good fit for Vatican City. The city itself does not rule over various peoples nor doea it hold any significant amount of territory on any continent other than Europe (and very little even there).
Ancient Rome on the other hand was famous for being built on seven hills - a reference that would be understood by readers from the time it was written until now. It did indeed rule over vast areas of land and over many people - and at the time of Nero (which fits with the comment on the seven Kings) it had persecuted Christians and did demand worship of the Imperial cult (that is worshipping dead Emperors as Gods).
Quite frankly I think that the main reason is that you hate Catholics (and Muslims).
I would also point out that complaining about UN intervention in the Balkans amounts to an endorsement of "ethnic cleansing". If that is not what you beleive I suggest that a retraction and clarification is in order.
1. There was a time in history subsequent to the time of the prophecy to the tune of several centuries when the popes of Rome essentially ruled the rulers of the world, i.e. ".....kings of the earth have commited fornication with her." (Revelation 18:3). The world body to this day has given (imo) undue respect to Vatican City, allowing it a place in the world body with ambassadors etc.
2. My understanding of the typography of Rome is that it does not sit on seven hills but that there are seven hills in the region of the city. I see the seven hills as the seven continents of the world so far as the prophecy goes.
3. There you go again.....spinning factual information relative to someone or something into hate simply because the facts implicate a negative connotation.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2003 4:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by anglagard, posted 07-10-2008 12:36 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 53 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 12:43 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 58 by subbie, posted 07-10-2008 8:38 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 59 by RickJB, posted 07-10-2008 8:40 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 62 by rueh, posted 07-10-2008 11:39 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2008 2:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 126 (474684)
07-10-2008 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by anglagard
07-10-2008 12:36 AM


Re: Prophecies
anglagard writes:
Bet that was news to the Emperor of China, the Princes of India, the King of Siam, the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Bantu kingdoms, and the Ottoman Empire. Guess over half the world's population don't count in your definition of humanity.
Maybe your image of world history at any given time is too provincial for a self-proclaimed infallible interpretation of Biblical prophecy.
1. The prophecy pertained to a time when the rulers of prominent nations were subject to the oppressive religion of one city, Vatican City.
2. There were exceptions pertaining to time periods in history as well as nations. The prophecy is significant in that a city has existed for many centuries which was capable of such a fulfillment.
3. As in other prophecies like those of Daniel etc, one must consider all of the corroborating evidence relative to the prophecy. (A review of this thread will bring that evidence up which I've cited.)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by anglagard, posted 07-10-2008 12:36 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by anglagard, posted 07-12-2008 1:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 126 (474686)
07-10-2008 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by DrJones*
07-10-2008 12:43 AM


Re: Prophecies
DrJones writes:
What is undue about treating one sovereign country like the rest?
1. Vatican City is not a nation/country. It's a religious hierarchical city.
2. The world body is committing illegitimate political fornication with this religious entity.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 12:43 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 07-10-2008 9:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 61 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 11:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 126 (474688)
07-10-2008 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2008 11:23 PM


Re: The Vatican
Hi Nems; sure glad you're active again. You're too late for a prize however. Way back five years ago, in '03, this correct answer was posted on page one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2008 11:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 126 (474771)
07-10-2008 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by subbie
07-10-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Prophecies
subbie writes:
If you had any actual evidence that the writer knew that there were 7 continents, that would impress me greatly. But, beyond that, exactly how does Vatican City rule over Antarctica?
I believe there's at least one Catholic church on that continent, but not sure. The prophecy is worded so that the large island, Greenland, could be counted as the 7th continent.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by subbie, posted 07-10-2008 8:38 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by subbie, posted 07-11-2008 8:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 82 by Brian, posted 07-12-2008 6:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 126 (474773)
07-10-2008 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RickJB
07-10-2008 8:40 AM


Re: Prophecies
RickJB writes:
I think you mean "topography".
Also, Rome did indeed cover seven hills.
Right on both counts. Thanks, Rick. The hill villages which had their own names and walls became part and parcel of the walled city of Rome.
I should have said that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills. Vatican City has real estate (i.e. sits) on all the continents with, perhaps, Greenland substituting as number 7 continent.
According to Revelation 17:9 and 17:15, the heads of the beast are seven hills (high places) on which the woman sits and the waters are the nations of the earth.
Since in verse 1 the woman sits on the waters and in verse 15 the woman sits also on the hills the hills (i.e. topographical high places) must be the continents upon which the nations are.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RickJB, posted 07-10-2008 8:40 AM RickJB has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 126 (474774)
07-10-2008 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by rueh
07-10-2008 11:39 AM


Re: Prophecies
Rueh, Rome doesn't fit the prophecy for the reasons I've stated. Would you care to weigh in on my response to Rick?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by rueh, posted 07-10-2008 11:39 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by rueh, posted 07-11-2008 9:26 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 126 (474777)
07-10-2008 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by DrJones*
07-10-2008 11:03 AM


Re: Prophecies
DrJones writes:
Wrong once again Buz. And what is even funnier about this time is that way back in 2003 in message 22 of this thread you even stated that the Vactican City was an independent state:
Why is it illegitimate? Sovergein nations fornicate with each other all the time, sometimes in groups even.
The Holy See is a religious hierarchy, unlike all other nations.
Ambassadors are officially accredited not to the Vatican City State but to "the Holy See", and papal representatives to states and international organizations are recognized as representing the Holy See, not the Vatican City State.
Holy See - Wikipedia

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 11:03 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2008 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 126 (474779)
07-10-2008 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
07-10-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Prophecies
Paul, I believe most of what you are calling for has been either addressed elsewhere in the thread or in my last few responses.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2008 2:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2008 1:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 126 (474858)
07-11-2008 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by rueh
07-11-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Prophecies
rueh writes:
buzz I don't see anywhere in the thread where you have refuted anything about Rome. I see plenty of times where you would rather it be the Vatican, but as far as proving it couldn't be Rome...... well maybe I am missunderstanding your rebuttal. Could you explain to me again then why you think Rome was not the mentioned city.
I (abe: reviewed) what I had posted to Rick and I think I see how I confused you pertaining my position.
I said:
I should have said that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills. Vatican City has real estate (i.e. sits) on all the continents with, perhaps, Greenland substituting as number 7 continent.
1. What I should have said was that Vatican City does not sit on the seven hills of Rome, but it does sit on seven masses of land (i.e. owns real estate) globally which could be considered topographically high masses of land relative to the ocean floor such as continents and large islands are.
2. Since the harlot woman sits both on the waters which are the nations as per the following texts, the hills (high land masses) cannot be Rome's hills because the nations are not in Rome. They are global. Thus the hills MUST BE global for the prophecy to make sense.
The rest of my statement to Rick:
According to Revelation 17:9 and 17:15, the heads of the beast are seven hills (high places) on which the woman sits and the waters are the nations of the earth.
Since in verse 1 the woman sits on the waters and in verse 15 the woman sits also on the hills the hills (i.e. topographical high places) must be the continents (or global high land masses) upon which the nations are.
It gets a bit complicated and to understand and interpret the prophecy correctly one must do some homework and carefully corroborate the statements in chapters 17 and 18 of the prophecy in Revelation.
My antagonists fail to do that. They would rather choose to smear the integrity of the messenger than to study the facts out and apply what is written.
Of course, as usual, the bottom line is that secularists have a serious fobia of anything hinting of the supernatural. They MUST come up with something - anything to fit their fobia.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Improved wording as noted.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by rueh, posted 07-11-2008 9:26 AM rueh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2008 5:44 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 75 by Coragyps, posted 07-11-2008 5:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 126 (474873)
07-11-2008 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by PaulK
07-11-2008 5:44 PM


Re: Prophecies
PaulK writes:
Even if Vatican City DID own small patches of land on seven ill-defined "land-masses" that would be an incredibly strained reading of the prophecy. And you've presented no evidence that Vatican City as such does own such land.
1. This is just one miniscule example of the vast real estate and property that the Vatican essentially owns globally. It's worth a read. I've cited a small segment of the link so as for you to get an idea of what it's about.
The Pope has had at least three banks in America.
What later was called the Continental Bank of Chicago, was founded in Chicago under different names prior to the American Civil War. About the same time as the setting up in 1857 of the Chicago Board of Trade with which the Continental became interwoven. Their transactions were so incestuous,,, how could one tell one from another? Early in its highly corrupt history, the Board of Trade was [and some say, still is] such a gambling hell, that Western Union Telegraph once cut off its wire there, refusing them services.
From early on, the Bank as well as the Board of Trade were supervised by the British and French Rothschilds, jointly with the Pope and the Papal States. And from early on, representatives of both the Vatican and the British monarchy sat on the Board of Continental. Few understand enough about all this to easily conceive of the Pope and the Queeen, together. In the public mind, at best, these are forces of friction.
Traditionally, members of the CBOT were those of the Irish Catholic and some few of the Jewish aristocracy, not your everyday ethnic and religious folk. As strange as it may seem to ousiders, this raucous gang was fully acceptable to and allowed themselves to be supervised by the representatives of the British royal house together with the Vatican
2. My understanding is that the reason the Vatican "married" the clergy, instituting celibacy including the millions of priests, etc globally to the church (i.e. Vatican City) was to render all property of the clergy as property/entities of the RCC/Vatican City. Thus at the death of members of the church, Vatican City becomes the heirs of the clergy. The church needed money, etc to run the churches etc. The pre-celibacy priests & nuns who had families usually left their possessions, assets, etc to the relatives.
These priests, nuns, bishops and popes etc often had great monetary assets including real estate, etc. By the institution of celibacy they became married to the church so the relatives could not legally claim the assets of the deceased church entities.
It would be impossible to estimate the vast amount of property, including real estate that this entails globally. The amount would likely be in the trillions of $$$!
That is an over-literal and confused reading. The woman is said to sit on the waters (17:1) and is then seen in a vision sitting on the beast - with no mention of the waters - (17:3) and the seven hills are one of the two meanings given to the seven heads of the beast (17:9). Nothing implies that the hills need to be global.
Thanks Paul, for making my point. This is a classic example of how you people operate. You segmentize/mine out tids and bits of text so as to obfuscate the prophecies of scripture. Anyone with an objective attitude about truth relative to scripture knows that the woman of the waters is the same woman of the hills. This is undeniable. So much for your knowledge or more likely, for your interest in the facts relative to Biblical eschatology.
This is why you needn't always expect responses from me on some of the nonsense which you persistently and incessantly whine about relative to lack of response from me.
PaulK writes:
As usual you make false accusations to cover up the fact that it is you who has not read nor understood the Bible.
Thanks again for making my point. This is classic PaulKish MO.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2008 5:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2008 1:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 126 (474874)
07-11-2008 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Coragyps
07-11-2008 5:49 PM


Re: Prophecies
Coragyps writes:
I found your problem....
Would you mind elaborating on my problem, Coragyps?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Coragyps, posted 07-11-2008 5:49 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 126 (474884)
07-11-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by sl33w
07-11-2008 8:56 PM


Re: The City WAS Spiritual Babylon, Papal Rome
sl33w writes:
The city was identified (paraphrased), "trafficking in souls."
This was Papal Rome; Spiritual Babylon, ruling with the sword.
When the sword was taken away from Papacy and Pope, by the 10 Horns [10 Papal States; see: "Italian Revolution" (AD 1848-70)], then the definition of the City was ended.
The 10 horns are end time global kingdoms; not papal states. They hate, persecute and destroy Mystery Babylon/harlot woman as per Revelation 17 and 18. The 10 horned beast is addressed textually in Rev 13, Rev 17, Rev 18 and in Daniel 7. They are one and the same. The Mystery Babylon woman sits on the beast but is not part and parcel of the beast, including it's horns.
To understand them one must corroborate info from all text references.
sl33w

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by sl33w, posted 07-11-2008 8:56 PM sl33w has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by sl33w, posted 07-12-2008 1:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 126 (605432)
02-19-2011 4:20 PM


Bumping Mystery Babylon Back On Track
This thread has wandered way off track from the list of criteria cited in the OP which must all apply in order to determine what is described in chapters 17 and 18 of the Revelation prophecy. Message 1 lists the criteria which is required in order to apply Mystery Babylon to an existing city on the planet.
Too many of the responses which have derailed this thread cite one or two similarities of cities existing here and there in the nations.
What I want to focus on here is to cite a city that best fits the greatest number of items listed in the OP as follows:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The prophecy of Mystery Babylon covered in chapters 17 and 18 states no less than five times that this is about a specific city which would emerge to exist upon the earth. There is a city, only one on the planet which fits the description given in the text. No, I say, no other city on the entire planet fits the ticket for ALL the data given in these two chapters. Yes some cities have some of the characteristics, but only one has them all. Name that city.
Lets have a look at the data given beginning with chapter 17:
    hate the city and shall persecute her and eventually cause her destruction. (This rules out the beast as being one and the same as the city (as some responders in this thread have determined.
    7. verse 18.....The city has at some time or other been known to actually have exercised ruling power over the kings of the earth.
    8. Chapter 18, verses 11-13: She is involved in all kinds of commercial things, fine things and even in the souls of men, indicative of a religious element.
It is prophesied that the time will come when this city will burn up and be gone in ONE HOUR'S TIME. It will of needs, in order to be fulfilled, come to happen at a time when it is possible for a city to be burned up in such a short time. It will of needs also have to happen at a time in history when it is possible for kings, ship masters and others to view the burning from afar. These, imo indicative of both nuclear destructive devices and television.
Note: I have added, with emphasis, some to the original OP.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 126 (605444)
02-19-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
02-19-2011 4:32 PM


Re: Bumping Mystery Babylon Back On Track
jar writes:
See Message 103.
Washington, DC is the city that most closely matches the prophecy.
These two messages are bare one line assertions. You need to show how Washington DC meets each criteria on the list.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 6:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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