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Author | Topic: What is "the fabric" of space-time? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
The term space is used to describe that area of nothing between objects. That area between you and what you are observing, that is space. Space is caused by looking out from a point. The concept of space comes about from the idea that one perceives through something when looking out from our point of view. There are objects that exist other than where we are viewing from, and by looking out to these items we create the idea of space... ...Space as far as I am Concerned has no shape because it is not a thing? Space is the area between objects, we as humans gave that area a name..... SPACE. Yes, well done. You have grasped the concept of space that most had from 3000 years ago to about 100 years ago. You've only 100 years to go to catch up. It can't be that hard... Given that your understanding is so out of date, it seems a liitle superfluous trying to sort out the rest of your post line by line. If you think of an ocean as space, and waves on that ocean as matter or stuff, then you're not too far off our current understanding.
What type of physical, observational data do you have that space is being bent? Einstein never showed physical proof, so that whole spacetime thing is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sorry, but GR is one of the two most successfully tested theories ever devised by mankind - admittedly not all of the evidence was gathered by Einstein himself, but does that matter??? If you are interested in this evidence, you may want to look into Advance of the Perihelion of MercuryGravitational wave emission from binary neutron stars Pound-Rebka experiment Effect of GR on the GPS sattelite system Gravitational lensing Existence of black hole-like objects in galactic nuclei (including the centre of our own Galaxy) That's a start - let me know if you find any problems with any of these. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
We have those things we all call physical, so what is it? nothing or something? These physical things are undeniable. They are real for us. So what do you mean nothing is physical? What are you saying about force? Force is not a thing, a physical thing. Force is an influence that tends to change the state of rest a body and its uniform motion. Force is an action that acts on physical things. So force is NOT found as the irreducible part of matter. Force is what moves matter. Again, your understanding is a good 100 years out of date. What makes something physical? When you pick up an apple, what enable you to touch it? What stops your hand passing through the apple? What makes up the mass of the apple? The answer to all these questions is 'force'*, something unphysical according to you. How do you square this with your understanding? There is not as much difference between "physical" objects and "empty space" as you'd think... * electromagnetic force in the case of the soliidty of the apple and the hand;, and mainly the chromodynamic (strong) force in terms of giving rise to the apple's huge mass (with respect to the total of the quarks and leptons rest masses that make up the apple.) Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Are you saying that it is a physical thing? Yes/No? As I pointed out, you have an outdated erroneous definition of "physical", so what are you going to gain by an answer to this question? You think that physical means "having substance", "tangible", etc, which are reasonable definitons for Newtonian mechanics and gravity. And space in a Newtonian sense is obviously not "physical". But we are talking about space-time, something far beyond Newtonian concepts, and it is not something that can be described as being, or not being, something (i.e. "physical") that only relates to Newtonian concepts. So, yes, space-time is physical, but to understand this, you need to understand what physical means. In physics, we describe everything in terms of fields. Matter (electrons, quarks, etc) are one type of field, forces (photons, gluons, etc) are another type of field, and space-time (which gives rise to the sense of distance between objects in the Universe) is another type of field. These fields are so similar that we think that they are different manifestations of just one field. So matter, forces, and space-time are all physical.
If so, Just give some kind of evidence that supports your viewpoint. In my last few posts I have given you more than enough experiments and key-words for you to Google and Wikipedia your way through this information to satisfy yourself. Or you can pick up any decent advanced graduate particle-physics/relativity text book and start learning properly, assuming you have a suitable grounding in the undergard maths and physics. Feel free to ask any questions regarding this, but if you are going to simply repeat your erroneous assertions, such as
Space as far as I am Concerned has no shape because it is not a thing then I am going to ignore you, or at least offer you my (not particularly competitive) rates for teaching annoying students advanced physics... Edited by cavediver, : No reason given. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Unfortunately, you show no interest in learning anything and so I have nothing more to say to you. Enjoy wallowing in your own ignorance
If anyone else is so stupid as to think that they can debate advanced science topics using everyday dictionary defintions, please think twice before posting...
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
What with this reply SG just submitted, and his recent reply to randman, it seems that SG's keen resolve and determined patience are starting to show the very first signs of cracks. Reminds me of someone else, much further along the road to complete dispair
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I would appreciate any help you can give me in raping my mind... think that should be *wrapping*
Ex: older more distant objects move very fast away, newer, closer objects moving not so fast. Is this due to the effect of space itself stretching the frequency emitted from the objects? Yes, this is definitely one way to think of it. It is not that we are seeing the distant galaxies and quasars moving away at velocities that they were moving away from us at that time, which would be the case if this were simply a Doppler effect. The Universe has been expanding as the photons have been travelling towards us through the billions of years, and this expansion is the reason for the red-shift. There is actually a far far simpler explanation, which I may as well mention as you brought up "light-cones", despite it requiring more insight into space-time physics. As you may know, photons actually have no "length", as the proper distance between the emission and absorption of a photon is zero (think of infinite length contraction), and there is no time between emission and absorption (think of infinite time dilation.) So how does the red-shift arise in this context? It is simply a result of the light-cone at emission pointing in a different direction to the light cone at absorption. The photon allows us to overlap the light cones (despite being separated in our minds by billions of years and billions of light-years) and take a measurement of the difference between them. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
It is simply a result of the light-cone at emission pointing in a different direction to the light cone at absorption. The photon allows us to overlap the light cones (despite being separated in our minds by billions of years and billions of light-years) and take a measurement of the difference between them. I am lostHow do we take a measurment of the difference between light cones? I can envisage the emission light cone. Ditto the absorption light cone. I can even imagine the merging of the two to form two cones base to base. But I am utterly lost as to how this relates to the red shift?Can you explain further? Ok, let's say I have a light source - that wavelength/frequency of the light is measured relative to the time axis of my own light-cone. Relative to a light-cone that is tipped over somewhat, the light will appear to have a longer wavelength, lower frequency, and hence red-shift, because the ticks of a clock measured in the first light cone, will tick more slowly when measured against the time axis of the second light cone (and vice-versa). Cosmological curvature is what causes the two light cones to be tipped wrt each other, and the photon joining the two light cones is what enables us to compare their relative tipping. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
You want to show the whole form I am stupid Not really, when you have done such an admirable job yourself. There is no point describing the evidence to you because there is no one simple experiment to demonstrate this to you - it is a body of work and observation built over the past 100 years. I have already mentioned gravitational lensing, which is probably the most direct evidence, but you have obviously failed to look this up - again showing your complete disinterest or inability to study. I'll tell you what - you're right, I've been wrong all this time. Space isn't physical - it is simply a place where physical things can be. You win. Also, dictionaries are the perfect learning place for scientific concepts and theories - you were right and I was wrong. I concede the debate 100% to you.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Yes John, you tell Son Goku. There's no better way to look intelligent than to tell a practising Theoretical Physicist to look up physics topics on Wikipedia
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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