What is "the fabric" of space-time?

Posted by IamJoseph

Spacetime is a quotient, namely an equation which represents the interaction of space and time.

Quotient and equation are man-made terms and concepts, is that what you are saying spacetime is, a man-made concept?

So is spacetime a physical thing? Yes/No?

Posted by john6zx

The term space is used to describe that area of nothing between objects. That area between you and what you are observing, that is space. Space is caused by looking out from a point. The concept of space comes about from the idea that one perceives through something when looking out from our point of view. There are objects that exist other than where we are viewing from, and by looking out to these items we create the idea of space...
...Space as far as I am Concerned has no shape because it is not a thing? Space is the area between objects, we as humans gave that area a name..... SPACE.

Response by cavediver.

Yes, well done. You have grasped the concept of space that most had from 3000 years ago to about 100 years ago. You've only 100 years to go to catch up. It can't be that hard... Given that your understanding is so out of date, it seems a liitle superfluous trying to sort out the rest of your post line by line. If you think of an ocean as space, and waves on that ocean as matter or stuff, then you're not too far off our current understanding.

I say that the term space does not describe a physical thing.

You say that my understanding is out of date. So what is space? Are you saying that it is a physical thing? Yes/No?

Posted by john6zx

What type of physical, observational data do you have that space is being bent? Einstein never showed physical proof, so that whole spacetime thing is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

cavediver response.

I'm sorry, but GR is one of the two most successfully tested theories ever devised by mankind - admittedly not all of the evidence was gathered by Einstein himself, but does that matter??? If you are interested in this evidence, you may want to look into Advance of the Perihelion of Mercury Gravitational wave emission from binary neutron stars Pound-Rebka experiment Effect of GR on the GPS sattelite system Gravitational lensing Existence of black hole-like objects in galactic nuclei (including the centre of our own Galaxy) That's a start - let me know if you find any problems with any of these.

WHAT TYPE OF SCIENTIFIC PHYSICAL, OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT SPACETIME IS A PHYSICAL THING? What reference emperically and precicsely describes spacetime as a physical thing?

If spacetime is a physical thing, then, in what does it exist? What is the form in which this object, thing exists as? All things are in some form of energy, so spacetime is in what form?

Just tell this whole form that you think that spacetime is a physical thing and show undeniable evidence of this. Give a scientific reference or definition that states that spacetime is a physical thing.

Posted by john6zx

We have those things we all call physical, so what is it? nothing or something? These physical things are undeniable. They are real for us. So what do you mean nothing is physical? What are you saying about force? Force is not a thing, a physical thing. Force is an influence that tends to change the state of rest a body and its uniform motion. Force is an action that acts on physical things. So force is NOT found as the irreducible part of matter. Force is what moves matter.

Response by cavediver.

Again, your understanding is a good 100 years out of date. What makes something physical? When you pick up an apple, what enable you to touch it? What stops your hand passing through the apple? What makes up the mass of the apple? The answer to all these questions is 'force'*, something unphysical according to you. How do you square this with your understanding? There is not as much difference between "physical" objects and "empty space" as you'd think... * electromagnetic force in the case of the soliidty of the apple and the hand;, and mainly the chromodynamic (strong) force in terms of giving rise to the apple's huge mass (with respect to the total of the quarks and leptons rest masses that make up the apple.)

So you say that force is a physical thing. Show me a definition or reference that states force is a physical thing. There are those things that are considered physical objects, and then there is a thing that exists that moves or motivates these physical objects. There is the object and there is that which moves the object, two different things. Are you willing to say that force is a physical thing? If so, Just give some kind of evidence that supports your viewpoint.

Posted by john6zx.

Yes this is a science thread. So if something exists in the physical universe it is going to be made of some form of energy. Everything is made of energy. That energy will be condensed and form what we call matter or it will not be as condensed and be in the form as a wavelength. Either way it is a form of energy.

I just wanted to say that this is not true. Things are not made of energy. Energy is the ability to do work. It is a quantity an object can posses. Mass, the resistence to motion, is another quantity possessed by matter. Relativity states that these two quantities are the related. However nothing says that everything is made of energy.

O.K. So what are physical things made of?

Matter is the condensation of energy. The more energy condenses, the less space it occupies and the more solid it becomes. Energy becomes matter if condensed. Matter becomes energy if dispersed.

Energy=mass times the speed of light squared.

Tell me what you think matter is made of. You can not consider matter without also considering energy. But go ahead, tell me what matter is.

Posted by john6zx
Are you saying that it (space, spacetime) is a physical thing? Yes/No?

Response by cavediver:

As I pointed out, you have an outdated erroneous definition of "physical", so what are you going to gain by an answer to this question? You think that physical means "having substance", "tangible", etc, which are reasonable definitions for Newtonian mechanics and gravity. And space in a Newtonian sense is obviously not "physical". But we are talking about space-time, something far beyond Newtonian concepts, and it is not something that can be described as being, or not being, something (i.e. "physical") that only relates to Newtonian concepts.

I have not given a definition of physical. You are putting words into my mouth by stating what I think the definition of physical is.

Did I give a definition of physical? Yes/No?

Here is what you said I think the definition of physical is:
"You think that physical means "having substance", "tangible", etc, which are reasonable definitions for Newtonian mechanics and gravity."

That definition IS a reasonable definition for the term physical. You say that this definition is erroneous and outdated. REALLY! Have you looked in a dictionary lately? Here I will help you.

DEFINITIONS OF PHYSICAL FROM DICTIONARY.COM

Phys·i·cal /ˈfɪzɪkəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fiz-i-kuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to the body: physical exercise.
2. of or pertaining to that which is material: the physical universe; the physical sciences.
3. noting or pertaining to the properties of matter and energy other than those peculiar to living matter.
4. pertaining to the physical sciences, esp. physics.
5. carnal; sexual: a physical attraction.
6. tending to touch, hug, pat, etc.; physically demonstrative: a physical person.
7. requiring, characterized by, or liking rough physical contact or strenuous physical activity: Football is a physical sport.

Physical

adjective
1. involving the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit; "physical exercise"; "physical suffering"; "was sloppy about everything but her physical appearance" [ant: mental]
2. relating to the sciences dealing with matter and energy; especially physics; "physical sciences"; "physical laws"
3. having substance or material existence; perceptible to the senses; "a physical manifestation"; "surrounded by tangible objects"
4. according with material things or natural laws (other than those peculiar to living matter); "a reflex response to physical stimuli"
5. characterized by energetic bodily activity; "a very physical dance performance"
6. impelled by physical force especially against resistance; "forcible entry"; "a real cop would get physical"; "strong-arm tactics" [syn: forcible]
7. concerned with material things; "physical properties"; "the physical characteristics of the earth"; "the physical size of a computer

Are you saying that these definitions of physical are erroneous and outdated? These are some correct and current definitions of physical, and these are the definitions of physical that I am referring to when I ask you if you think that space, spacetime are physical things. What definition of physical are you referring to?

You now have a few examples of the correct definition of physical, so tell me, DO YOU THINK THAT SPACE,SPACETIME IS A REAL PHYSICAL THING?

I mean every word that I say in that question. You can look up every word in my question to you in any dictionary and then you will know what exactly I am saying.

You seem to think that spacetime is a thing that exist in the physical universe. So all you need to do is show some evidence of this. In what way does this thing exist? What makes it a thing?

If spacetime is a thing, in what way is it a thing? I think I have stated my question in a way as to avoid any further confusion.

You say it exists. I say, exists in what way. What makes it what it is? Break it down if you have to. Example: Spacetime is made of space and time, and then go on to show how space is a thing that exist as some sort of energy. Then go on and show how time exists as some sort of energy. Or something like that. I am sure that you get the idea.

Thank You

john6zx

Edited by john6zx, : No reason given.

Quote by randman.

I agree with you or partly. Time and space are more descriptions of distance between physical things from our perspective. However, they are in one sense physical in that they are a reference to physical relationships and so have a location from one perspective.

The terms NEAR and FAR are references to physical relationships, so does that make NEAR and FAR physical things?

If you know of any science reference that states that space or time are physical things please include it in this discussion. If not, I still would like to discuss this particular topic and see if we can figure out true nature of space and time from what we can perceive from the world around us.

Quote from randman.

I do believe the fabric of space-time is essentially non-physical and informational.

I would like to remind you that this is a personal belief and not science, but I would like to hear more from you on this. I would like to know what you mean by FABRIC of space-time, and what you mean by essentially non-physical and informational.

Quote by onifre.

I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.

Is this a quote from a movie or something? I am curious as to why anyone would say this.

john6zx wrote:
Yes this is a science thread. So if something exists in the physical universe it is going to be made of some form of energy. Everything is made of energy. That energy will be condensed and form what we call matter or it will not be as condensed and be in the form as a wavelength. Either way it is a form of energy.

Son Goku responded with:

I just wanted to say that this is not true. Things are not made of energy. Energy is the ability to do work. It is a quantity an object can posses. Mass, the resistance to motion, is another quantity possessed by matter. Relativity states that these two quantities are the related. However nothing says that everything is made of energy.

You have brought up a very interesting comment about the true nature of what things are, what is energy and what is matter. I can only hope that you are willing to pursue this topic to the end. You may be right in saying that things are not made of energy. I would really like to explore this further.

I am going to see if I can take this whole concept that I have about everything is made of energy and see how it fits with the established data of the physical sciences.

I will first start by emphasizing that I stated that if something exists in the physical universe it is going to be made out of energy.

Now I consider light, or any form of electromagnetic energy to be a something and a form of energy. Would you agree?

I know that this does not seem to cover every aspect of all that exists in this universe. I just want to take one step at a time.

Right now, for the benefit of having a real communication on this subject, I would like to establish that we are on the same page, we are talking from basically the same point of view.

I just want to find out from you if you consider electromagnetic waves to be a thing that can exist in this universe (they are a something). And if you consider these electromagnetic waves to be a form of energy?

If you do not agree please explain, I am here to find out more and adjust my ideas if I find that I am in error.

Posted by cavediver:

If anyone else is so stupid as to think that they can debate advanced science topics using everyday dictionary definitions, please think twice before posting...

I have asked you if you have any evidence that space is a physical thing. I have stated that there is no scientific evidence or definition that states that space is in any way a physical thing.

From your reply I gather that you do have much faith in dictionaries and their truthfulness. So you think that I am stupid for using an everyday dictionary when debating science, (you call our debate on space advance science, but in actuality, space is a very basic concept when it comes to physics)

So, grab your advance science reference and show me that I am wrong. Show me your advance scientific reference that states space is a physical thing.

You say I show no interest in learning, yet I have read many reference books and dictionaries, this is an example of someone who is willing to learn. You say that I am stupid when I base my conclusions of space on scientific references, are you suggesting that dictionaries and scientific references are also ignorant?

You want to show the whole form I am stupid, then just show some evidence that space is a physical thing. Prove me wrong. I say space is not a physical thing, so the burden of proof that space IS a physical thing lies with you. You need to prove your point and stop avoiding the issue by calling those who disagree with you stupid. Show some science behind your claim. Debate me with evidence and science not name calling, come on and just put this issue to rest with undeniable evidence.

Question posed to Son Goku on page 19 #272.

"O.K. So what are physical things made of?"

Son Goku response:

Who knows? Depends on what you want. I could give an answer about particles being Poincaré irreps, e.t.c. However that's tangential to the thread.

I bring this up because I said earlier that everything that is something in this universe is made of energy. Son Goku said that I was incorrect in this statement. Now Son Goku says that he does not know what physical things are made of. Son Goku knows that I am wrong when it comes to the physical universe being made of energy yet Son Goku does not know what physical things are made of.

I have made my statement that everything in this universe is made of energy based on scientific references and established facts.

Son Goku says that he does not know what physical things are made of despite the whole internet that is filled with data on the topic of physical and matter. Science does have a viewpoint on what physical things are made of.

jonh6zx posted:
"Matter is the condensation of energy. The more energy condenses, the less space it occupies and the more solid it becomes. Energy becomes matter if condensed. Matter becomes energy if dispersed."

Son Goku response:

That is incorrect. You cannot "condense" energy and make it become matter. Show me a process where you take some "ability to do work" and condense it to make matter. If matter was only made of energy where would electric charge come from? In no theory in physics is matter made of energy.

I really did not want to jump the gun on this topic, I already posted an earlier question that was a better starting point in deciding if everything that exists in this universe is made of energy or not. (I asked you if you considered electromagnetic waves to be a something and if you thought that these waves were made of energy.)
But I could not let your statements go unanswered, so here I go.

You say that you cannot condense energy into matter. Look up MASS-ENERGY EQUIVALANCE on wikipedia, google, dictionary.com. In fact what you should do in order to get a better understanding of what matter is and what makes things physical is to go on the above mentioned web sites and research the following terms:

MATTER.
ELEMENTARY PARTICLES.
ELECTRONS.
ATOMS.
MOLECULES.

and any related topics. Then you will see that physical things are made of something, something that is basic to all things in this universe.

john6zx posted:
"Matter becomes energy if dispersed."

Son Goku response:

Again, there is no process where extremely disperse matter becomes energy. Name one, if you don't think this is the case.

"The atom bomb. Read about MASS-ENERGY EQUIVALANCE."

Posted by john6zx:
"Tell me what you think matter is made of."

Son Goku response:

There are several answers one could give, which may or may not be satisfactory. That doesn't change the fact that matter isn't made of energy

I am not asking you for a SATISFACTORY answer, science has described what matter is made of, it is already an established fact. I was asking what you thought matter was made of since you seem to have an opinion on the subject.

Here is the funny thing, You have stated that you do not know what physical things are made of, yet you know it is not energy. Please just do some research on the topic of MATTER and all related subjects. Just to get a better understanding.

Posted by Straggler:

You seem to be saying that by trapping and condenscing pure energy in the absence of any matter new matter will be created..........

I am saying that matter is made of energy. It is energy that is condensed. Matter is a form of energy.

I am not saying that we have the ability to gather energy and make matter, I am saying that matter is a condensed form of energy.

If you do not think that matter is made of energy, then what do you think all matter is made of.... smaller bits of matter maybe?

Can we agree that this universe is made up of matter and energy?

Please just research MATTER on the web or in your books and tell me what you find. When matter is reduced to the irreducible what is left? What is it that matter is made of.... tiny bits of more matter?

You have to realize that even if matter is made from tiny bits of more matter, those tiny bits would have to be condensed to form the objects that we see today. So either way something is being condensed to form matter. So is matter made from condensed matter, condensed energy, or something else?

Posted by Son Goku:

You do not need to know everything to know something. Given what energy actually is, it is a trivial deduction that matter is not made of it, regardless of one's knowledge of the actual constituents of matter. Matter is not made of energy, just as it is not made of angular momentum. Both are properties of matter.

Science has a viewpoint on what matter is made of. Physics and chemistry students learn what matter is made of. There are many references that explain the structure of matter. There is an answer, it is not a mystery, so please just find out what science has agreed on about the structure of all matter in this universe.

I have come to the conclusion that matter is made of energy from what science has observed though testing and experiments. Your conclusion that matter IS NOT made from energy is by all means a valid viewpoint on this subject at this moment. I would just like to hear what you think matter is made of. What is your conclusion on the structure of matter?

Maybe I am wrong in my conclusion that matter is made of energy. This form is a designed to discuss such topics and for everyone involved to gain a better understanding of the physical world around them. You have stated what matter IS NOT made of, so now I would like to hear from you on what you think matter IS made of.

Posted by onifre:

The problem is that you are not understanding the explanations given to you by people who have been involved in cosmology for years, your understanding of the subject is then limited to your layman interpretations and definitions. What is being explained therefore passes you by. You repeateing your questions just further shows that you are unwilling to learn properly. I'll ask you the simple question of : Can spacetime be warped? You don't even need to search, here’s the answer used for high school physics classes,

I went to the web site and I am very familiar with this demonstration. This demonstration involves a force that we call gravity. The whole point of the demonstration is to show that massive objects warp this thing called space-time, and gravity is not the cause of the planets orbits. Yet the mass that is placed in the center of the latex sheet moves in a downward direction toward the floor because of gravity, not a warping of a thing called space-time. This demonstration shows the effects of gravity, that’s it.

This type of demonstration does not explain what space-time is, it does not explain what this fabric of space-time is made of. This demonstration does not explain how this fabric came to be. It does not explain what this fabric is located in. The demo is used to explain the orbits of the planets is not due to gravity, so what is it that causes my pencil to move toward the floor when I let go of it? Warped space-time?

Is this really scientific proof of the existance of space-time? No direct observation of this Great fabric in the sky, just a heavy ball in some elastic material. I could go on about this and how unscientific it is, but all I need to point out is that I have been saying that space is not a physical thing, and this website that you offered up is supposed to give proof that space is a real physical thing.

Please explain where this demo proves beyond a reasonable doubt that space is a physical thing?

Posted by Straggler:

I don't find any mention of matter being a "condensed form of energy". My guess is that this misapprehension of the equivalance principle and resulting interpretation is uniquely your own. Can you provide a source for this specific assertion of yours? Namely that "matter is a condensed form of energy".

Here is one web site of many that talks about the relationship between matter and energy.

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6a.html

Here is a quote from that web site.

Energy is defined simply by scientists as the capacity for doing work. Matter is the material (atoms and molecules) that constructs things on the Earth and in the Universe. Albert Einstein suggested early in this century that energy and matter are related to each other at the atomic level. Einstein theorized that it should be possible to convert matter into energy. From Einstein's theories, scientists were able to harness the energy of matter beginning in the 1940s through nuclear fission. The most spectacular example of this process is a nuclear explosion from an atomic bomb. A more peaceful example of our use of this fact of nature is the production of electricity from controlled fission reactions in nuclear reactors. Einstein also suggested that it should be possible to transform energy into matter.
Energy and matter are also associated to each other at much larger scales of nature. Later on in this chapter, we will examine how solar radiation provides the energy to create the matter that makes up organisms. Organisms then use some of this matter to power their metabolism.

I am sure that this one refernce is not going to convince you of my view on this. This will keep the discussion going in a specific direction.

That direction being, What are atoms made of? What are electrons? What is matter really made of?

You have not mentioned what you think matter is made of, but I think by the time we boil this whole subject down we will have our answer.