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Author Topic:   Is complexity an argument against design?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 61 of 142 (475553)
07-16-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 5:39 PM


Re: God as perfect?
The one where Jesus declared,
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)
and
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21)
Great you can quote the Bible, but the question was 'What method did YOU use to determine whether the Jonah story is to be taken literal or not?'
Now, lets try this again. You said you take it to be a literal story, what method are you using to determine that?

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 5:39 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 6:10 PM onifre has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 62 of 142 (475555)
07-16-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by bluescat48
07-16-2008 1:46 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Maybe you and your millions of others can believe your ideas based on John 3:3-7, but as for I and millions of others, who do not believe that the biblical scripture is true without significant evidence for other sources, your evidence doesn't alter my ideas at all. Since neither you nor I have any evidence whether any biblical account is true or not It seems that we would be at a stalemate as to whether the following
Jesus said, "just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"
is true or not.
It seems your problem is also with the words of Jesus, not with me. Those that enter into the kingdom of God via the new birth find the reward He gives to those who seek Him.
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Heb 11:6)
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 07-16-2008 1:46 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 63 of 142 (475557)
07-16-2008 6:04 PM


Where's the science in intelligent design
It is amusing that a thread devoted to intelligent design quickly devolves into a discussion of religion and scripture.
I thought ID was supposed to be science. What gives, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 6:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 64 of 142 (475558)
07-16-2008 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by onifre
07-16-2008 5:44 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Now, lets try this again. You said you take it to be a literal story, what method are you using to determine that?
I suggest you start by reading the Gospel of John, asking God to help your unbelief and prove Himself to you as you read His word.
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD. (Jer 29:13-14)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by onifre, posted 07-16-2008 5:44 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by onifre, posted 07-16-2008 6:57 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 65 of 142 (475560)
07-16-2008 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Coyote
07-16-2008 6:04 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
It is amusing that a thread devoted to intelligent design quickly devolves into a discussion of religion and scripture.
The discussion of scripture was started by others, not by me.
It's even more amusing to read how the explanations of incredible designs have somehow evolved in the universe and life here on earth, all without an Intelligent Designer.
Edited by John 10:10, : added sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Coyote, posted 07-16-2008 6:04 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 07-16-2008 10:29 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 07-17-2008 3:26 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 66 of 142 (475565)
07-16-2008 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 6:10 PM


Re: God as perfect?
So YOUR faith is your method of knowing that Jesus meant the story of Jonah to be taken literal?
Im only asking because it seems to be the same method you apply to determine there has to be a designer, and the same method ID uses to invoke a designer. But you both lack the same thing and that is evidence, without that you have no argument.
Therefore you don't know for sure if the story of Jonah is to be taken literal or not, and you don't know for sure if there is a designer or not, all you have is your faith that you are right in your belief.
What you want from us is for us to adopt your beliefs and take YOU on faith that you're right.

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 6:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 10:50 PM onifre has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 67 of 142 (475600)
07-16-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
It is amusing that a thread devoted to intelligent design quickly devolves into a discussion of religion and scripture.
The discussion of scripture was started by others, not by me.
It's even more amusing to read how the explanations of incredible designs have somehow evolved in the universe and life here on earth, all without an Intelligent Designer.
There is scientific evidence for evolution; there is no scientific evidence for an intelligent designer.
ID is just a dishonest scheme cooked up to replace creation "science" after it was booted from the classrooms by the U.S. Supreme Court.
The evidence is all around, and particularly at the Discovery Institute. Check out the evolution of their webpage over the years, and the infamous Wedge Strategy where they told how they were going to try to force a theocracy on us all, beginning with science (I'll provide links if you want).
And it is still amusing that the proponents of ID are so wont to quote scripture and the bible rather than scientific evidence, and how many of them cry "religious persecution" the moment their brand of "science" is criticized.
Ya can't have it both ways. Either ID is real science, and gets by on its merits and the evidence, or it isn't. So far it isn't.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 6:18 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 11:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 68 of 142 (475603)
07-16-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by onifre
07-16-2008 6:57 PM


Re: God as perfect?
What you want from us is for us to adopt your beliefs and take YOU on faith that you're right.
It's not my beliefs and faith that you need. You will have to get your own beliefs and faith from the author and finisher of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by onifre, posted 07-16-2008 6:57 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by onifre, posted 07-17-2008 12:33 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 69 of 142 (475604)
07-16-2008 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
07-16-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
There is scientific evidence for evolution; there is no scientific evidence for an intelligent designer.
As that famous philosopher Bill Clinton once said,
"It all depends on what is is."
We've been thru this many times before. Your definition of scientific evidence for evolution is much different than mine, and so is the scientific evidence for our Creator/Intelligent Designer.
When you stand before Him in the resurrection, you won't be asking for scientific evidence then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 07-16-2008 10:29 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Coyote, posted 07-16-2008 11:05 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 73 by Granny Magda, posted 07-17-2008 9:29 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 74 by bluescat48, posted 07-18-2008 9:10 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 70 of 142 (475605)
07-16-2008 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 11:00 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
We've been thru this many times before. Your definition of scientific evidence for evolution is much different than mine, and so is the scientific evidence for our Creator/Intelligent Designer.
Creation "scientists" don't get to define the methods and interpretations of science any more than astrologers and phrenologists do. That is a task (thankfully) left to scientists.
When you stand before Him in the resurrection, you won't be asking for scientific evidence then.
You do more preaching in the science threads than anyone else I can remember.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 11:00 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 71 of 142 (475610)
07-17-2008 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 10:50 PM


Re: God as perfect?
It's not my beliefs and faith that you need. You will have to get your own beliefs and faith from the author and finisher of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.
And where exactly can I find something written by this beloved fello???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 10:50 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 142 (475621)
07-17-2008 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
The discussion of scripture was started by others, not by me.
Your should be aware that your Holy Book advises you not to tell lies.
It was indeed you who revived a thread that had been dormant for over a YEAR, to post inane (post 52) drivel, and then adopt your usual question avoiding dance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 6:18 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:15 AM Brian has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 73 of 142 (475659)
07-17-2008 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 11:00 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
We've been thru this many times before. Your definition of scientific evidence for evolution is much different than mine, and so is the scientific evidence for our Creator/Intelligent Designer.
That is because most of the pro-science folks on this board are using the same kind of definition as scientists themselves use, a not not unreasonable position in my view.
How would you like it if I insisted that Christianity be defined solely by non-Christians? Shouldn't scientists and Christians (not mutually exclusive categories by the way) be allowed to define their own pursuits in their own way, rather than allowing what they do to be defined by their critics?
When people ask for scientific evidence for ID it is because ID proponents claim that ID is science. Thus it seems reasonable to demand evidence to back up this claim.
Furthermore, if ID is science, of a kind no different to mainstream science, it clearly follows that ID must carry out its research and provide its evidence under the same principles and definitions of science as everyone else. To suggest that ID need only meet your favoured definition of science (which is most definitely not the one accepted by mainstream scientists) is to admit that ID does not operate in the same way as mainstream science and therefore is not mainstream science, or indeed, science at all.
You are undermining your own argument.
When you stand before Him in the resurrection, you won't be asking for scientific evidence then.
You just don't get it do you? If I find myself standing before the Almighty in some sort of afterlife, then I certainly won't be asking for evidence. That is because I will have the evidence right there in front of my eyes!. If I actually find myself in the afterlife I will have all the evidence I need to confirm its reality, through simple empirical observation of my new surroundings.
I do not believe that there is a tiger in my linen cupboard, but if I opened it up and a bloody great tiger jumped out and started chewing on my arm, I wouldn't be asking for evidence that the tiger was real; I would have ample evidence. The same is true in your example.
One last point. You don't do the ID movement any favours by invoking the Almighty. ID is supposed to be science. By constantly mentioning God and quoting the Bible, you are giving the game away somewhat.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 11:00 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 74 of 142 (475777)
07-18-2008 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 11:00 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
We've been thru this many times before. Your definition of scientific evidence for evolution is much different than mine, and so is the scientific evidence for our Creator/Intelligent Designer.
Your definition of scientific evidence is of no more value than my definition of an afterlife. Science advances based on evidence not speculation. Do chemists still search for the philosopher's stone?
Do Astronomers try to explain the future based on the position of the stars & planets? Back in the middle ages & the Renaissance, scientists held that creation was true, but since then have found evidence of evolution. ID is nothing more than a regression to creationism. It is the same as if chemists decided to throw out oxidation/reduction and replace it with phlogiston.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 11:00 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by John 10:10, posted 07-18-2008 9:52 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 75 of 142 (475778)
07-18-2008 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
07-17-2008 3:26 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Your should be aware that your Holy Book advises you not to tell lies.
I simply looked at the post just before mine which described the creation scriptures as myths, and responded.
Did Jesus tell lies in John 10:27-28 when He said,
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 07-17-2008 3:26 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Brian, posted 07-18-2008 9:34 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
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