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Author Topic:   Scotus rules 2nd amendment is an individual right
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 76 of 176 (475721)
07-17-2008 6:00 PM


here's what i have to say about regulated automatics.
get a rubber band!

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 77 of 176 (475724)
07-17-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2008 9:40 PM


Cultural Confusion
Whilst I remain wholly unconvinced of the need for guns in society and disagree with a lot of what you say your post is at least a genuine answer to my questions and does display a rational criteria for limitation.
However the video regarding hunting in Britain is woefully out of cultural context. The hunting this video refers to is the very British traditional form of hunting whereby people in full costume ride on horse back with packs of dogs with the end result of capturing and killing a fox.
A gun of any sort is unlikely to be used at all and if it is it will only be used to put the ravaged fox out of it's final misery. The vast majority of people in this video would no more promote the use of personal handguns for protection and use against other humans than would I. The fact that the American accented voice over fails to appreciate this fact is further evidence of the cultural misunderstanding.
The term "hunt" in the US means something very different to the term "hunt" in the specific cultural context of British upper class "sport".
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2008 9:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

steeley42
Junior Member (Idle past 5708 days)
Posts: 8
From: Ohio, USA
Joined: 05-02-2008


Message 78 of 176 (475725)
07-17-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Artemis Entreri
07-17-2008 5:55 PM


give you a link... a link! To a book? Not everything is online. I've given you the books; I'll look for the exact pages when I can get to my collection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-17-2008 5:55 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 79 of 176 (475734)
07-17-2008 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
07-16-2008 10:49 PM


Re: Anti Everything
No everybody in Jamaica don't have guns just the police and the crooks. Well that does cover most everybody. But there are a lot of law abiding people in Jam that do not own guns. There are a lot of people there that can't afford a gun. A 357 S&W costs around 165,000 Jamaican dollars, the last I heard. I have many friends from Jamaica as I lived in Grand Cayman for 15 years.
I lived in Guyana for a number of years and the one thing I learnt about guns is that poverty is rarely a barrier to owning firearms.
Does that stop them from killing each other, afraid not.
In Jamaica over 130 per 100,000 killings occur. 66% of those are from gun shot wounds. 34% are from other weapons.
So banning both guns and "other weapons" might be a valid form of ensuring less needless loss of life. No?
29% are from disputes of which half are committed with a knife.
In London there is a massive crackdown on the carrying of knives with a zero tolerance approach and stiffer sentances just for carrying (regardless of use) knives likely to be implemented. Ban knives as well seems to be the very obvious answer.
Inner-cities saw 55% of knife and gun crime | Knife crime | The Guardian
According to Wikipedia every country has a different definition for violent crime.
52 people died as a result of being shot in the UK last year.
How does that compare to the US as a whole?
How does that compare to a single state in the US?
How does that compare to a single city in the US?
Does the right to guns really not result in more death by guns?
We have a population of about 60 million in the UK. How does 52 people compare as a percentage of the population with the number of gun deaths per head in the US?
I don't think I said the UK had more gun homicides that the US.
More homicides?
More homicides as a percentage of population?
I did quote the Harvard people as saying the UK had a higher violent crime rate than the US.
What is the violent crime rate of the UK? What is the violent crime rate of the US? Are the two measures using the same criteria for "violent crime"? If not what comparison, if any, can be drawn?
God Bless
I don't think it is me who needs blessing.
Bottom line: In a country of 60 million people there were 52 deaths due to guns in 2007 and 784 murders in total.
In the US: "In 2004, the most recent year for which figures are available, an average of about 81 people died every day from gunfire in the united states. All told 29,569 people were killed that year by firearms"
Go figure...........
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2008 10:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2008 9:30 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 83 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 12:32 PM Straggler has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 176 (475737)
07-17-2008 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
07-17-2008 8:57 PM


Re: Anti Everything
Straggler writes:
So banning both guns and "other weapons" might be a valid form of ensuring less needless loss of life. No?
But they do have the most stringent gun laws of anybody.
Firearms Act and the Gun Court Act of 1974. The Acts provided for gun confiscation, house-to-house searches, incommunicado detention, secret trials, warrantless searches and seizures, and mandatory lifetime prison sentences for the possession of even a single bullet. The main designer of the Gun Court Act was the president of the World Federation for Mental Health, Dr. Michael Beaubrun. He insisted that the Gun Court was a scientifically designed approach to behavioral change.
Found Here.
Straggler writes:
Go figure...........
Hasn't the UK broadened the police to have ARU patroling the streets especially in what is termed Hot Zones?
As I understand it there is enough weapons in the unit to start a small war.
BTW half of the gunshot dead in America are self inflicted.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 07-17-2008 8:57 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Straggler, posted 07-18-2008 8:17 AM ICANT has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 81 of 176 (475770)
07-18-2008 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
07-17-2008 9:30 PM


Re: Anti Everything
But they do have the most stringent gun laws of anybody.
Together with poverty, gross social inequality and a fair amount of the population living in near third world conditions. As is inevitable in such circumstane there is a high degree of police corruption. If law enforcement and organised crime are all but indistinguishable no amount of stringent lawmaking and political posturing will have any effect on anything.
Do you have any examples other than Jamiaca? Other countries that have tight gun controls and high murder rates? Perhaps ones where poverty and corruption are not such a huge factor? A western 1st world democracy would surely be a better example with which to compare America?
Hasn't the UK broadened the police to have ARU patroling the streets especially in what is termed Hot Zones?
I do not know what ARU was so I typed "London ARU" into google and got a load of links to architecture and art websites. Obviously not a common term here. That in itelf probably says something
The police in Britain are apparently more armed than ever before. This is true. I have yet to see a gun carrying police officer on the streets of Britain but they do apparently exist. Like I said earlier I live in one of the most ethnically diverse and socially disadvantaged parts of London. So if I am not seeing police with guns they really cannot be that prevalent. I, and apparently the majority of my fellow countrymen, (about 60% according to the BBC website) wholly object to this recent development anyway.
In my view this leads to an ever escalting arms race between the police and the criminals. If nobody has guns (even the police) then anyone caught with a weapon is a criminal. There is no ambiguity. If this is enforced such that any dealings with guns whatsoever is a criminal offence then the chasing of guns detracts from the main focus of the vast majority of criminals. Namely making money. It becomes more of a burden and liability than a benefit to be constantly having to evade being arrested for gun chasing rather than money making crime. Constantly being harrassed by law enforcement for what is a means to a end rather than an end in itself becomes an unnecessary hindrance to the criminals main activity.
By arming the police we A) send out the signal that guns are necessary in order to impose will B) setup a never ending arms race with the criminals who will see guns as an essential necessity, no matter how difficult or expensive to obtain, with which to take on armed police.
It is sad to see that in the name of "fighting terrorism" and security in general the state is intruding ever further on long held principles of peace and freedom (constant surveillance, detention without trial, armed police etc. etc. etc.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2008 9:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 12:01 PM Straggler has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 82 of 176 (475804)
07-18-2008 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Straggler
07-18-2008 8:17 AM


Re: Anti Everything
Straggler writes:
I do not know what ARU was so I typed "London ARU" into google and got a load of links to architecture and art websites. Obviously not a common term here.
Try This
Straggler writes:
Together with poverty, gross social inequality and a fair amount of the population living in near third world conditions. As is inevitable in such circumstane there is a high degree of police corruption. If law enforcement and organised crime are all but indistinguishable no amount of stringent lawmaking and political posturing will have any effect on anything.
Do you have any examples other than Jamiaca? Other countries that have tight gun controls and high murder rates? Perhaps ones where poverty and corruption are not such a huge factor? A western 1st world democracy would surely be a better example with which to compare America?
Straggler there are about 25 other countries with worse murder rates than the US. Depending on whose charts you choose to believe. Many have tight gun controls.
Jamaica just happens to be #1. They were under British rule for many years and then declared their independence. Jamaica, at one time was the most prosperous nation in the Caribbean. Until the corrupt police and the crooks took over.
Since they are the only one's with gun's they do as they please and the ordinary person just tries to stay out of the line of fire. They have no way of defending themselves other than a machete. That not too good against an AK- 47 Assault Rifle.
I truly hope that your government never becomes corrupt. We know the crooks are getting more plentiful in UK. What would you do if it got to the point the police was just as corrupt as the crooks and you could not even tell them apart except for the uniform.
What recourse would you have.
In America it will never come to the point we do not have recourse that is what the 2nd amendment is all about.
It is to make sure what has happened in Jamaica can never happen here.
I lived in Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands for a total of 15 years. It has a British Governor. One of which was a good friend. No gun's are ammunition are allowed on the island except at the police sponsored shoot club. All weapons that individuals own are kept by the police. The last year I was there they had a shoot out in the emergency room at the hospital. Between a man who had gone there to kill his wife, and the police.
I have lived without gun's in my possession. But with our diversity of people and crooks in America there is no way I will give up my weapons.
If for a while because they are available more die, it just has to be, because that is better than millions dying because we decided to give up our gun's. As the old saying in the South goes "Hell will freeze over first". And if Hell does not exist that would make it just that much harder to freeze over.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Straggler, posted 07-18-2008 8:17 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 12:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2008 1:41 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 101 by Straggler, posted 07-19-2008 10:49 AM ICANT has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 83 of 176 (475808)
07-18-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
07-17-2008 8:57 PM


Re: Anti Everything
Bottom line: In a country of 60 million people there were 52 deaths due to guns in 2007 and 784 murders in total.
In the US: "In 2004, the most recent year for which figures are available, an average of about 81 people died every day from gunfire in the united states. All told 29,569 people were killed that year by firearms"
Go figure...........
surely end of conversation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 07-17-2008 8:57 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2008 12:59 PM cavediver has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 84 of 176 (475809)
07-18-2008 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
07-18-2008 12:01 PM


Re: Anti Everything
I truly hope that your government never becomes corrupt. We know the crooks are getting more plentiful in UK. What would you do if it got to the point the police was just as corrupt as the crooks and you could not even tell them apart except for the uniform.
I guess our government has been evolving for well over half a millenium longer than yours - if you manage to get to our stage, you'll probably feel sufficiently comfortable to let go of those guns

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 12:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 2:05 PM cavediver has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 176 (475810)
07-18-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by cavediver
07-18-2008 12:32 PM


Re: Anti Everything
quote:
Bottom line: In a country of 60 million people there were 52 deaths due to guns in 2007 and 784 murders in total.
In the US: "In 2004, the most recent year for which figures are available, an average of about 81 people died every day from gunfire in the united states. All told 29,569 people were killed that year by firearms"
Go figure...........
surely end of conversation?
In 2004, 16,750 of those 29569 deaths from firearms were suicides. Them not having a gun wouldn't prevent them from killing themselves.
That leaves us to 12,819 deaths from firearms, in general.
If you look at murders, 70.3% of the 16,137 homocides were from firearms, or 11,344 people. Out of 285.7 million people, that's only 0.004%, or 40 people per million killed by a firearm in a year. That's not bad enough to warrant not having guns.
Homer Simpson writes:
Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 12:32 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 86 of 176 (475814)
07-18-2008 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by New Cat's Eye
07-18-2008 12:59 PM


Re: Anti Everything
40 people per million killed by a firearm in a year
compared to the UK's less than 1 people per million...
surely end of conversation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2008 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2008 1:40 PM cavediver has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 176 (475815)
07-18-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by cavediver
07-18-2008 1:34 PM


Re: Anti Everything
40 people per million killed by a firearm in a year
compared to the UK's less than 1 people per million...
surely end of conversation?
Of course not. Why would that end the conversation?
That's surely not reason enough to deny people their right to own firearms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 1:34 PM cavediver has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 88 of 176 (475816)
07-18-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
07-18-2008 12:01 PM


Re: Anti Everything
We know the crooks are getting more plentiful in UK.
Oh yeah?
The latest figures I can find were published this April.
Recorded crime fell by 12% in the last three months of 2007 - the largest drop in at least five years - according to Home Office figures published today.
Police in England and Wales reported substantial falls in robbery (down 21%), car crime (down 19%), criminal damage (down 17%) and violence against the person (down 10%).
The total number of offences recorded from October to December 2007 dropped to 5.05m - a fall of 12%. This is the biggest single quarterly drop in the crime figures for at least five years.
Police recorded a 20% rise in drug offences due to greater use of cannabis warnings, and a 4% overall rise in gun crime from 9,594 incidents to 9,967.
The number of people shot dead, however, fell from 56 in 2006 to 49 in 2007 and shootings involving serious injury dropped from 424 to 355.
The overall rise in gun crime was due to an increase in incidents where slight injuries were sustained, or the weapon was used to threaten.
The 12% fall in crime follows a 9% drop between July and September, a 7% fall between April and June, and a 3% fall from January to March, suggesting the drop in crime is now both sustained and accelerating.
The British Crime Survey, which is based on a survey of 40,000 people's experience of crime, confirms this, with the risk of being a crime victim falling to 23% - the lowest since the survey began in 1981.
Overall, the BCS puts the fall in crime at 6% during 2007, with violent crime also down 6%, and significant falls in car crime and vandalism.
It's funny how many things you "know" that aren't true, isn't it?
What would you do if it got to the point the police was just as corrupt as the crooks and you could not even tell them apart except for the uniform.
We British have a whole set of contingency plans for stuff that will never happen. That one's #11017(f).
We'd unleash the robotic winged monkeys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 12:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 2:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 89 of 176 (475819)
07-18-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by cavediver
07-18-2008 12:35 PM


Re: Anti Everything
cavediver writes:
I guess our government has been evolving for well over half a millenium longer than yours - if you manage to get to our stage, you'll probably feel sufficiently comfortable to let go of those guns
At the present we have over 20 million people in the US illegally.
We have a bunch of bleeding hearts that won't send them home. If you think I am giving up my weapons you got another think coming.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 12:35 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by cavediver, posted 07-18-2008 2:27 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 94 by cavediver, posted 07-19-2008 3:36 AM ICANT has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 90 of 176 (475821)
07-18-2008 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ICANT
07-18-2008 2:05 PM


Re: Anti Everything
We have a bunch of bleeding hearts that won't send them home. If you think I am giving up my weapons you got another think coming.
Ever been round Ravenholm in Half Life 2? I'm sure I've met you there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2008 2:05 PM ICANT has not replied

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