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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 67 of 113 (475856)
07-19-2008 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?
So far GDR's reply is my favorite one on this question beause the biblical salvation is about being made a new creation much more so than being transported as is to a happy place.
But with misconceptions excused for a moment I'll give a crack at an answer.
1.) The work of sacrificing for the eternal destiny of human beings was the unique work of Jesus Christ. He alone was qualified to effect that matter. Eternal redemption through atoning death was His office alone. It can never be made anyone else's.
This is not to say that Christian disciples are not called to sacrifice or serve or lay down their comfort on behalf of the blessing of others. But those sacrifices are not in the realm of "You suffer eternal perdition so that this one does not." They could never be for eternal redemption to replace the finished work of Jesus at Calvary. That's not a Christian's calling. It could never be a disciple's service to replace the Savior Jesus in that office. So the very question is nonsensical in that regard.
2.) I want to be where Jesus is.
If Jesus is there in hell I would prefer to be there with Him rather than in heaven without Him.
What would drive my decision is "Where would my Lord Jesus be?"
3.) Any charitableness which is not Christ Himself living out from me is of no use to God's purposes.
So this concept of excercising some natural or religious charitableness apart from the divine nature imparted into a person via union with Christ can only go to serve a manmade purpose and not the will of God.
I don't want to give myself to anything which is not the will of God no matter how apparently "charitable" it appears in the eyes of man.
For example, in Matthew's Gospel when Peter suggested that Jesus should pity Himself and avoid the crucifixion to come, he was rebuked by Jesus with "Get behind me Satan. You mind in on the things of man and not the things of God."
Some forms of "charitableness" can just be expressions of the Satanic spirit in opposition to the will of God.
Not interested.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by rueh, posted 07-19-2008 5:08 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 70 of 113 (476109)
07-21-2008 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by rueh
07-19-2008 5:08 PM


Wouldn't this be tantamount to placing others before God?
My God is the man Jesus Christ according to the teaching of the New Testament.
"And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.... And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (See John 1:1,14)
Jesus is God become a man.
In this example you actively reject God in order to follow Jesus.
Christ is God and man mingled together. Christ is the universal union of divinity and humanity.
So the answer is to follow Christ is to follow God. And to follow God is to follow Christ.
Which correct me if I am wrong but is a violation of the ten commandments.
I am trying to correct you.
The law of Moses has a chief function to expose man and reveal to man the need for forgiveness, redemption, reconciliation and transformation.
Fallen man from Adam thinks he only has a minor problem between himself and God which he (man) can easily fix. God knows better and says in essence "You think you are OK? Here, keep this law."
The ten commandments main purpose was utterly expose the fallen nature and pave the way for the redemptive act of the Son of God to reconcile us to God.
I know that many believe in the trinity which would than lead to the argument that since Jesus is one part of God than you can not follow Jesus and reject God.
The New Testament says that all of the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily. That is not one third of the fulness. Nor is that 33.3333% of the fulness. All the fulness is embodied in the Son of God.
"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:19)
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9)
The mutual coinherence means that where one of the Triune God is the others are also. They mutually live within One Another. This is a great mystery which we are called to believe who receive Christ.
We are called to receive Christ. To receive Him is to receive the Holy Spirit. And to receive Him as the Holy Spirit is to have the Father and the Son come to us and make an abode within us:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.: (John 14;23)
The Divine "We" here means the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit brings into the believe the Father and the Son as the Divine "We". In this way Father - Son - Holy Spirit come to make an abode with the lover of Christ.
Chapter 14 is all about the Spirit of Reality, the Holy Spirit. He is called "Another Comforter". And to receive this Holy Spirit is to receive the Triune God.
Remember always 1 Cor. 15:45 - "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit."
Christ in resurrection brought His human person into the eternal Spirit and became in a form to impart and dispense the life of the God - man Jesus into people. He became a life giving Spirit.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)
However, I myself do not believe in the trinity. I believe that the trinity is an add on in order to establish Jesus' divinity, I believe in one God.
Jesus established His divinity Himself. His disciples like John, Peter, Paul, etc. only FOLLOWED Him to also establish His divinity.
The [word] Trinity is of course not in the Bible. The idea of having such a theological word arose from the need to DEFEND the Person of Christ from various wrong ideas. For example, in reaction to Arius who wanted to deny the divinity of Christ, the need for such a word as Trinity arose.
The FACT of Christ's divinity as well as His humanity was always there in the Bible. The expression Trinity only arose when the fact was attacked by various teachers in the latter church age.
Incidently, by saying that Jesus is God we do not mean that Jesus is not also a man. Some people feel that it must be one or the other. The incarnation means that both are true. Christ is the mingling of God and man.
God desires the mingling of God and men and women. Christ is the Head of the operation to unite and mingle God and humanity. That He would be the Firstborn Son among many brothers. See Romans 8:28,29.
So actively rejecting God in favor of Jesus is a clear indication that you place more emphasis on the messenger than on the message.
You have asked for correction if you are wrong. I have tried to correct you. It is up to you to receive the correction or hold to your wrong ideas.
Christ is God. The Son of God is God - "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Araham came into being I AM. So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple." (John 858,59)
The Jews there understood what Jesus was saying. He was saying that He was the I AM that I AM - God Himself who also appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They therefore attempted to stone Him for blasphemy - being a man and saying that He was the Great I AM - Jehovah God Himself.
They got it. It is time for you to get it also.
The apostles got it. When John wrote "And the Word was God" he invented nothing. JOhn was only faithfully FOLLOWING Jesus to teach in other words the exact same thing that Jesus taught.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : I meant to write that the WORD Trinity was not in the Bible. Bad Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by rueh, posted 07-19-2008 5:08 PM rueh has not replied

  
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