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Author | Topic: The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jazzns writes: You have the gall to come here and proclaim that you know better what a man's religion is than he does. Apparrently not only think that you know more about the "real Obama" than we do, you also claim to know more about him than he does. 1. I know that in Islam one is considered a Muslim who's father and stepfather were Muslim, i.e. born into Islam. 2. Reliable sources which I've cited in other threads state that he was enrolled in both Muslim and Catholic schools in Indonesia as a Muslim child. 3. I know that if he really converted to Christianity Muslims should not be supporting him as they are doing according to Islamic doctrine as he would be a heretic/apostate from Islam. 4. I know that the church he was going to has had close ties with the Black Muslim/Black supremicy movement in America and the Obama himself highly regarded Muslims like Malcolm X. 5. I know that according to Shari'ia Muslim law a Muslim can justly lie if it is needful for the advancement of Islam and for the Muslim god, Allah. 6. I have watched, listened and read much about the man and it appears that the whole Muslim wrold is for Obama and that when you sort out all of the manipulative wording of his statements, he will be soft on terrorism, undermine the war on terror and will see to it that the advancement of Islam in America will progress, including what's going on in the mosques and schools etc. Some of the above is what I know to be true and the rest is what I believe to be true. You may think I'm mistaken but STOP LABELING BUZSAW AS A LIAR ON THE WWW UNLESS YOU CAN SOUNDLY SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ACCUSATION. IT'S CONTRARY TO FORUM GUIDELINES AND TEES ME OFF BIGTIME. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
1. I know that in Islam one is considered a Muslim who's father and stepfather were Muslim, i.e. born into Islam. 2. Reliable sources which I've cited in other threads state that he was enrolled in both Muslim and Catholic schools in Indonesia as a Muslim child. 3. I know that if he really converted to Christianity Muslims should not be supporting him as they are doing according to Islamic doctrine as he would be a heretic/apostate from Islam. 4. I know that the church he was going to has had close ties with the Black Muslim/Black supremicy movement in America and the Obama himself highly regarded Muslims like Malcolm X. 5. I know that according to Shari'ia Muslim law a Muslim can justly lie if it is needful for the advancement of Islam and for the Muslim god, Allah. 6. I have watched, listened and read much about the man and it appears that the whole Muslim wrold is for Obama and that when you sort out all of the manipulative wording of his statements, he will be soft on terrorism, undermine the war on terror and will see to it that the advancement of Islam in America will progress, including what's going on in the mosques and schools etc. Some of the above is what I know to be true and the rest is what I believe to be true. I'm not seeing any actual justifications there for your crazy delusions and hysteria. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 837 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: 1. I know that in Islam one is considered a Muslim who's father and stepfather were Muslim, i.e. born into Islam. So by the same logic Ayann Hirsi Ali is still a Muslim since she has no choice either according to the Buzsaw hypothesis. Did either choose their parents?
2. Reliable sources which I've cited in other threads state that he was enrolled in both Muslim and Catholic schools in Indonesia as a Muslim child. As you have clearly stated your hatred for both, which do you consider worse? Muslim or Catholic?
3. I know that if he really converted to Christianity Muslims should not be supporting him as they are doing according to Islamic doctrine as he would be a heretic/apostate from Islam. So you are implying he is the Manchurian Candidate? Or do you think he had his face plasticized like in the second episode of the original Outer Limits? You must have quite the active fantasy life.
4. I know that the church he was going to has had close ties with the Black Muslim/Black supremicy movement in America and the Obama himself highly regarded Muslims like Malcolm X. Malcolm X is an admirable figure who had the courage to speak the truth about injustice. Can you provide us one example of anything he said that was not true at the time?
5. I know that according to Shari'ia Muslim law a Muslim can justly lie if it is needful for the advancement of Islam and for the Muslim god, Allah. According to Bob Altemeyer in The Authoritarians, 42 percent of all evangelicals and fundamentalists believe they can justify lying, cheating, stealing, murder, rape, incest, indeed even cannibalism because they have been 'saved' according to what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls cheap grace in The Cost of Discipleship. So what is the difference between those evangelical/fundamentalists and the suicide bomber of children when it comes to a moral code?
6. I have watched, listened and read much about the man and it appears that the whole Muslim wrold is for Obama and that when you sort out all of the manipulative wording of his statements, he will be soft on terrorism, undermine the war on terror and will see to it that the advancement of Islam in America will progress, including what's going on in the mosques and schools etc. How could anyone possibly do more for terrorism than the current US administration has already done? Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place for that Manchurian candidate.
Some of the above is what I know to be true and the rest is what I believe to be true. The last time you 'knew' something to be true you stated the Pope essentially ruled all the world's leaders for 200 years. All can see your ego will not allow you to retract this absurd statement no matter what the facts are.
You may think I'm mistaken but STOP LABELING BUZSAW AS A LIAR ON THE WWW UNLESS YOU CAN SOUNDLY SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ACCUSATION. IT'S CONTRARY TO FORUM GUIDELINES AND TEES ME OFF BIGTIME. Actually, I don't think you are intentionally lying, I just think you can convince yourself of the truth of anything you say because you have so much of a problem admitting when you are wrong. That and the anger/hate problem you show toward anyone who is in the least different indicates to me you never either read or understood the Sermon on the Mount. I personally ascribe this to a huge ego and that RWA personality. Hope heaven is big enough for you and any other occupants. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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Shield Member (Idle past 2862 days) Posts: 482 Joined: |
Have you? That WAS the question.
As for me, I have read both. Audacity i've read two times. I cannot fathom how you would conclude, by the contents of the two books, that Obama should be a black supremacist. Tell me what part made you conclude that? Chapters, pages etc.
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Shield Member (Idle past 2862 days) Posts: 482 Joined: |
quote: So what if youre considered a muslim... how does that MAKE him a muslim? I know this guy, both his parents a muslims. He is an atheist. I known him all my life, and there's nothing religious in him. Or is he too, a secret muslim?
quote: Untill he was 10 years old...
quote: So how does these muslims know that Obama haven't converted? He went out and told them and just asked them to keep it a secret? All of them? Or, maybe, just maybe, they dont really follow their extreme religous doctrines, just like christians and people of other religions dont. I mean, i know youre a christian, but you dont follow the rules from the bible now do you?
quote: Youre a pastor right? Did everyone you ever preached to agree with you on every subject? No? What did they do then? Leave the church? Or did they stick around because you really do say alot of great things and only every now and they disagree with you?
quote: And i know that christians can justly kill any one who dosent keep the sabbath (Exodus 31:14), dosent mean that youll do it. And what does it matter? The man is not a muslim. Surdenly not a fundementalist muslim.
quote: The whole muslim world dosent support Obama.Why would they? He has been an ass towards the muslim population in America and im guessing that middle eastern people support him because he is not very war hungry. quote: Youre a liar Buzsaw, and im pretty sure you are aware of it. Edited by rbp, : No reason given. Edited by rbp, : spelling error and quote error corrected
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
YouTube has nothing to do with it. YouTube is the intermediary that allows people to post videos. It is just clips from the audio version of his book taken out of context exactly like right wingers have been doing in print. You know, the whole book has a audio forms. Even in the clips that are shown there, it is patently ridiculous how out of context they are. For example:
Our rage at the white world needed no object, he seemed to be telling me, no independent confirmation; it could be switched on and off at our pleasure He is talking about something that someone else said! He is commenting on state of racism in our country and you will find out if you read his books, that he often talks about reverse racism that blacks have toward whites and how that is just as bad of a problem that we need to solve. The fact of the matter is, all of those quotes are GROSSLY out of context. Just because someone clipped them out of the audio book instead of the printed book doesn't change that at all.
Again, he said it himself that he was, as you call it, a "empty suit." It's a little tougher to cry right-wing conspiracy when it comes straight from the horses mouth. That is just plainly not true. Just because he says that he will actually listen to his constituency rather than rule by ideologue like Bush does not mean that he thinks he is an empty suit. You really honestly think that what he has said means that? You cannot fathom that you are possibly reading something else into what he has said? Have you read either of his books?
Besides, I know many conservatives that would absolutely love for either Rice or Powell to run. And I know many conservatives who think Powell is not conservative enough in the neo-con sense of the word. The point is not that they are racist, I didn't say that. I said that they are using every tactic at their disposal to make Obama seem scary rather than address the issues. That means pulling every card; funny name, voracious pastor, ex-Muslim father, etc. Its not just his ethnicity. They have no vector to attack him on issues. THAT is the point I bought up that you have yet to engage. He has been correct on Pakistan, on Afghanistan, on Iran, and now on Iraq any time they have TRIED to tag him on foreign policy issues.
This thread is about Obama, and whether Obama is a good candidate to be the next president of the United States. Bush had innumerable failures during his tenure, and McCain certainly appears like he'll follow suit. So now that you have no more scarecrows and distractions, let's get back on topic -- Obama. You don't seem to grasp the fact that I AM talking about Obama. I am talking about how when they have tried to criticize him on issues, they have had to backtrack, and in some cases even take his positions as their own because reality has dictated it. This IS about Obama NJ. I am talking about Obama but he doesn't exist on a planet by himself. He has his critics, prominently the key Republicans players and pundits in this, and it is against their criticism that he has shown exactly that he is not just an empty vessel.
Uhhhh.... I have no idea what you are referencing. Can you elaborate? MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos U.S., Iraq Agree To 'Time Horizon' BBC NEWS | Middle East | US seeks 'time horizon' on Iraq If you are educated as to Obama's position on this, please tell me how the new administration policy in Iraq differs in the slightest to what Obama has been talking about since he was elected into the Senate? Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I don't know how it is possible that you have read those books and came to the conclusion from their content that Obama is a black supremacist. Have you read the books? Cover to cover. But that wasn't the question. You claimed to have "examined" his books. What does "examined" entail? Did you read them? Or did you get short snippets of out of context quotes collected by right-wing smear jobs? As a Christian, I am sure you have been frustrated many times with people taking the Bible out of context. What makes these quote mines any different logically from that? Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Apparrently not only think that you know more about the "real Obama" than we do, you also claim to know more about him than he does. I don't claim to know more about Obama than he does. I take him at his word that he is a Christian. You are the only one substituting your judgement for another man's faith!
You may think I'm mistaken but STOP LABELING BUZSAW AS A LIAR ON THE WWW UNLESS YOU CAN SOUNDLY SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ACCUSATION. IT'S CONTRARY TO FORUM GUIDELINES AND TEES ME OFF BIGTIME. I did substantiate it in my last post. The man himself has said that he is not a Muslim. You seem to think that you know better what the faith of the man is more than him. You are STILL complaining about me judging you yet have no problem with your supposed superior judgement of Obama's belief contrary to both evidence and reason. the claptrap you posted 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. is all paranoid ravings that have already been totally shown to be false. The fact that you keep bringing them up IS THE SUBSTANTIATION that you are in fact lying. It is not just being about being mistaken. The things you are saying are objectivly slanderous lies. You may not like it, but why would I ever take what you like into account when describing what is blatant reality? Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given. Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
Jazzns I ask you had you read them because you have a bad habit of calling people liars. Which you did to me.
Jazzns writes: Did you read them? Or did you get short snippets of out of context quotes collected by right-wing smear jobs? So how about I quote a couple of passages that has nothing to do with anything anyone has said. The Audacity of Hope page 217 paragraph 3, first sentence.You should not have a problem finding that. Rather it was Baptist like Reverend John Leland and other evangelicals who provided the popular support needed to get these provisions ratified. Dreams from My Father page 217 paragraph 3, first sentence.You should not have a problem finding that. In my last two years in high school the Old Man's situation improved. Jazzns writes: As a Christian, I am sure you have been frustrated many times with people taking the Bible out of context. I got over people quoting the Bible out of context over 40 years ago.Just as soon as I figured out everybody that claimed to be a Christian was not a Christian. You can claim anything but when you examine the fruit that the tree brings forth then you know what kind of tree it is. It does not make any difference what the sign in front of it says. As I said I examined his beliefs by what he was taught, by what he has said, by what he wrote in his books, by what his women have said and came to the conclusions he is a black supremacist. I am a lifetime democrat with no one to vote for. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Jazzns I ask you had you read them because you have a bad habit of calling people liars. Which you did to me. When did I call you a liar? If I did I certainly don't remember it. So you can pull a couple of other quotes out of the book, what is that supposed to mean? Why is it so hard to just answer the question, did you read the books?
As I said I examined his beliefs by what he was taught, by what he has said, by what he wrote in his books, by what his women have said and came to the conclusions he is a black supremacist. What in the books lends support to your conclusions? I am curious because I have read those books and there was not one iota that made me even think "black supremacist". Combine that with the fact that there are real life examples of people taking quotes from his book out of context, like NJ in this very thread. Unless you can provide something more substantial to show us what from the books you drew your conclusions on, what else am I supposed to think except that you are just as misinformed than they are. Its a very simple, yes or no question. Did you read them? If so, what parts led you to believe he is a black supremacist? Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
Jazzns writes: Why is it so hard to just answer the question, did you read the books? Why would I have the books if I did not get them to read them.Dreams of From My Father cost me $11.16. The Audacity of Hope $13.43. That is enough money to supply 8 meals to someone at the shelter. So yes I studied them.
Jazzns writes: If so, what parts led you to believe he is a black supremacist? Did I anywhere state that the only information I used to make my decision was the two books.
Message 111 Points out several things including the two books.
Message 112 I examined his record as suggested by Chiroptera. Then you ignore everything but the two books. BTW you did not confirm or deny whether I had the books or not.
Jazzns writes: When did I call you a liar? If I did I certainly don't remember it. Jazzns writes: Message 116 I don't know how it is possible that you have read those books and came to the conclusion from their content that Obama is a black supremacist. You said I could not have possibly read those books. God Bless, 30 "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
rpb writes: I cannot fathom how you would conclude, by the contents of the two books, that Obama should be a black supremacist. See:
Message 111 Message 112 All of those things I examined and then came to my conclusions.Not just the two books. God Bless, 30 "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
You said I could not have possibly read those books. That is blatantly not true. Read my comment again:
Jazzns writes: I don't know how it is possible that you have read those books and came to the conclusion from their content that Obama is a black supremacist. I said I don't know how you could have come to that conclusion. This could be for 2 reasons, either you didn't actually read them, or you came to a different conclusion than I did based on what you did read. That is why I asked you as a followup to my question about having read the books was what from the books do you feel supports your opinion? I understand that you are forming your opinion from more than the books, but what part do the books play in your opinion? Honestly, I still cannot fathom, that anything from those books could, even with other factors, support the conclusion that you have come to. So please educate me. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
It is just clips from the audio version of his book taken out of context exactly like right wingers have been doing in print. You know, the whole book has a audio forms. They aren't taken out of context at all. Obama is very afrocentric, to the point where he deliberately chooses to side with his African side. He even said himself, "I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites." "There were enough of us on campus to constitute a tribe, and when it came to hanging out many of us chose to function like a tribe, staying close together, traveling in packs. It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names. To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists" Other parts of his books discuss being wary of white people because they are white. Somebody might want to remind him that he himself is white, and that the basis of color is utterly stupid. See, there is a critical difference between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. X thought it was his civic duty to fight racism with racism. Luther thought it best to stamp it out by not basing allegiances on race. Obama is closer to Malcolm X than he his Martin Luther. So if some people are distrusting of Obama, it is with good reason. It is not his blackness that people take exception to. It is his penchant for black activism, which is, at the core, racist and divisive.
quote: He is talking about something that someone else said! He is commenting on state of racism in our country and you will find out if you read his books, that he often talks about reverse racism that blacks have toward whites and how that is just as bad of a problem that we need to solve. He is complementing and lauding these people! He agrees with it, Jazzns. He agrees with them. Are you so daft that you can't realize that he whispers sweet nothings in your ear so that he can get votes!?!? Think about it. This is what the real Obama believes. The nice guy image is a front. And he does a great job at it. I will never deny him that much.
Just because he says that he will actually listen to his constituency rather than rule by ideologue like Bush does not mean that he thinks he is an empty suit. You really honestly think that what he has said means that? Sure I do. The question by the media was if he was planning on running. He stated that he just got to the Senate, and the last thing on his mind was running for president because of his inexperience.
Have you read either of his books? One of them. I checked out "Dreams" about 3 months ago from the library. I wish I still had it in front of me so that I could directly take quotes from it now. I tried to get his other book, but apparently it's really popular. I put myself on a waiting list, and thus far I have not been contacted.
I know many conservatives who think Powell is not conservative enough in the neo-con sense of the word. That's fine with me. I want nothing to do with Neo-cons. They are black eye on the face of conservatism. They're like the obnoxious and embarrassing big brother you spend your time trying to have your friends avoid.
The point is not that they are racist, I didn't say that. I said that they are using every tactic at their disposal to make Obama seem scary rather than address the issues. Well, that's politics. I hate it too. But really, both sides have been conducting smear campaigns since the dawn of time. Look at the Democratic and Republican primaries. Holy cow, you'd think they all would have killed their own party members if they had the chance!
That means pulling every card; funny name, voracious pastor, ex-Muslim father, etc. Its not just his ethnicity. They have no vector to attack him on issues. If you'll recall the time line, all this hoopla started in the Democratic primaries. Democrats aligning with Hillary pulled out these tactics before conservatives even realized there was that dirt on him.
THAT is the point I bought up that you have yet to engage. He has been correct on Pakistan, on Afghanistan, on Iran, and now on Iraq any time they have TRIED to tag him on foreign policy issues. Correct on what, concerning those nations?
You don't seem to grasp the fact that I AM talking about Obama. When I mention something about Obama, you bring up Bush. We spent 8 years of Bush-hating and Bush-bashing. His time is up. It's over. Much of his debacles are beyond disrepute, so bringing them up again only confirms what we already knew. Right now we are discussing Obama, and whether he is a good candidate for the presidency.
He has his critics, prominently the key Republicans players and pundits in this, and it is against their criticism that he has shown exactly that he is not just an empty vessel. Jazzns, that's what pundits do. You act as if McCain doesn't have pundits making fun of him.
If you are educated as to Obama's position on this, please tell me how the new administration policy in Iraq differs in the slightest to what Obama has been talking about since he was elected into the Senate? I think it is a tool to salvage the tarnished legacy of GWB's Administration. Bush is simply trying to appease his critics. He has no plans of leaving Iraq until his goal has been accomplished, which may never be accomplished the way it was envisioned. That is why the use of the word "Time Horizon." Because he can't give a specific "Time Line," because then he would have to specify. Time Horizon allows for an unspecified time, but still tells the people he "intends" on getting out of Iraq. In other words, this is Bush's marketing ploy. “I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
They aren't taken out of context at all. Obama is very afrocentric, to the point where he deliberately chooses to side with his African side. He even said himself, "I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites." "There were enough of us on campus to constitute a tribe, and when it came to hanging out many of us chose to function like a tribe, staying close together, traveling in packs. It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names. To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists" Note the past tense. He also said that he used to snort cocaine, would it be truthful to say that he is a cocaine addict? So where do you get him saying that he is "very afrocentric"? The book is about him growing up. It is clear from the book, and from what he's said while grown up, that he has moved away from these childish ideas. Sheesh, he spent MLK day (amongst other things) criticizing black Americans for being anti-Semitic, how "afrocentric" is that? But you want to attack him for what he thought when he was "at the age of 12 or 13". On that basis, one could attack Darwin for being a Creationist. People grow up. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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