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Author Topic:   Dogs will be Dogs will be ???
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 331 (476141)
07-21-2008 1:11 PM


Dead dog walking

One more, just one more mutation and I'm jumping the species gap!

Baggage..
autoimmune hemolytic anemia, hemophilia, von Willebrand's disease, immune-mediated thrombocytopenia, autoimmune hemolytic anemia, lymphedema, phosphofructokinase (PFK) deficiency, amilial macrocytosis, dyshematopoiesis, congenital methemoglobinemia,
amilial nonspherocytic hemolytic anemia, mitral valve disease, patent ductus arteriosus, diabetes mellitus, growth hormone-responsive dermatosis, hyperadrenocorticism, hypoadrenocorticism, cataracts, collie eye anomaly, entropion, eyelash abnormalities,
narrow/closed angle glaucoma, goniodysgenesis, imperforate lacrimal punctum, keratoconjunctivitis, microphthalmia, hypoplasia, persistent pupillary membranes, progressive rod-cone degeneration, gastric dilatation-volvulus, pancreatitis, Renal dysplasia, atopy, craniomandibular osteopathy, intervertebral disk disease inherited
Legg-Calvé-Perthes disease,patellar luxation, Cerebellar and extrapyramidal nuclear abiotrophy,deafness, globoid cell leukodystrophy, hydrocephalus, epilepsy, leukodystrophies, shaker dog syndrome, tracheal collapse, dilution alopecia, congenital hypotrichosis, ectodermal defect, Malassezia dermatitis. sebaceous adenitis cryptorchidism, urolithiasis.
Man made him, only God can save him.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 212 of 331 (476142)
07-21-2008 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by LucyTheApe
07-21-2008 1:11 PM


Re: Dead dog walking
Baggage..
autoimmune hemolytic anemia, hemophilia, von Willebrand's disease, immune-mediated thrombocytopenia, etc. etc. blah blah ad nauseum...
Man made him, only God can save him.
Rubbish!
Nothing that a little natural selection won't fix up in a jiffie!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LucyTheApe, posted 07-21-2008 1:11 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

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AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 213 of 331 (476143)
07-21-2008 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2008 11:12 AM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
the dr. writes:
I give you, for example, the evolution of Chlorella vulgaris from a single-celled form to an eight-celled form, as a response to predation by Ochromonas vallescia. The benefit is that such forms are too big for O. vallescia to eat (will you admit that not being eaten is a benefit?) and of course such morphological changes would (and do) show up in the fossil record.
Hey doc. Did you read this citation? I doubt you did. You're an evo not willing to spend the $32.00 just like before you couldn't look up a cited Science article. But I guess you think you have something here.
Unfortunately, there is no mention of mutation in the abstract even the word evolution is not used. Selection is used though. In general this is a behavioural trait of the algae. Have you heard of Lamarck? There are such things a behavioural adaptations that aren't genetic.
You evidently have the Lamrckian ability to waste a significant amount of your time debating with creos. However, you can train your kids and your disciples in that, but you cannot pass it on in your genes.
I'm sorry, but you are going to have to provide evidence that this organization of algae cells was mutational.
the dr. writes:
In short, you hope you have set us a challenge which we will not presently be able to meet however true the theory of evolution is.
No, in short I hope to open your eyes to the fact that you call billions of fossil as evidence of "beneficial" mutational morphological change. Yet the real world evidence of "beneficial" mutational morphological evidence that would show up un the fossil record is vacuous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2008 11:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by RickJB, posted 07-21-2008 2:57 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 214 of 331 (476147)
07-21-2008 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
AOkid writes:
I'm sorry, but you are going to have to provide evidence that this organization of algae cells was mutational.
Um, the paper outlines the fact that they DID mutate - in 100 generations, no less. That's your evidence. Scientists watched it happen in a lab and wrote it down so others could replicate the experiment and confirm it for themselves. That's science in action.
You now have to propose what else might have caused the Chlorella Vulgaris to change its structure. Magic? Divine intervention?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-21-2008 1:57 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-21-2008 3:26 PM RickJB has replied
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AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 215 of 331 (476150)
07-21-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by RickJB
07-21-2008 2:57 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
RickJB writes:
Um, the paper outlines the fact that they DID mutate - in 100 generations, no less. That's your evidence. Scientists watched it happen in a lab and wrote it down so others could replicate the experiment and confirm it for themselves. That's science in action.
You now have to propose what else might have caused the Chlorella Vulgaris to change its structure. Magic? Divine intervention?
I've asked for a citation from this paper that cites that it is a mutation. Certainly the abstract makes no claim of that. Algae and plants react to alot of enviromental situations that aren't mutational. Have you ever seen a plant react to light? That's not a genetic trait my friend.
It wouldn't be unusual for "learned traits" of organization to be present that aren't mutational. A citation from the source is all I need.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by RickJB, posted 07-21-2008 2:57 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 216 of 331 (476165)
07-21-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 3:26 PM


Citation.
A quick online search yielded this citation:
Organism Size Promotes the Evolution of Specialized Cells in Multicellular Digital Organisms
by Martin Willensdorfer, Program for Evolutionary Dynamics, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Harvard University
NCBI
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 217 of 331 (476181)
07-21-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 3:26 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Have you ever seen a plant react to light? That's not a genetic trait my friend.
Yes, it is. how do you think that phototaxis is mediated? It is through proteins produced from genes. There are a number of identified mutants, in both cyanobacteria and plants, which affect phototaxis. These can occur in photoreceptive proteins, morphogenetic growth factors, and signal transduction factors.
How do you think plants react to light?
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 218 of 331 (476182)
07-21-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Hey doc. Did you read this citation? I doubt you did. You're an evo not willing to spend the $32.00 just like before you couldn't look up a cited Science article.
I am moderately curious as to what you can be talking about.
Unfortunately, there is no mention of mutation in the abstract even the word evolution is not used.
They also did not mention that 2 + 2 = 4, or use the word "duh", because they were writing for an audience of scientists. They did not need, therefore, to explain that a heritable change is a mutation, or that a change from single-celled to multicelled under selective pressure is adaptive evolution.
Their target audience did not need the bleeding obvious spelling out to them.
Selection is used though. In general this is a behavioural trait of the algae. Have you heard of Lamarck? There are such things a behavioural adaptations that aren't genetic.
You evidently have the Lamrckian ability to waste a significant amount of your time debating with creos. However, you can train your kids and your disciples in that, but you cannot pass it on in your genes.
I'm sorry, but you are going to have to provide evidence that this organization of algae cells was mutational.
I have heard of Lamarck's discredited ideas. I have no idea why you mention them.
This is clearly a heritable change:
These colonies retained the eight-celled form indefinitely in continuous culture and when plated onto agar.
No, in short I hope to open your eyes to the fact that you call billions of fossil as evidence of "beneficial" mutational morphological change. Yet the real world evidence of "beneficial" mutational morphological evidence that would show up un the fossil record is vacuous.
It is not "vacuous", (a word that you should blush to use) but there's not much of it, and as you know perfectly well, this is because most evolutionary experiments are done over a short period (compared to the billions of years in the fossil record) using tiny blobby things with little discernable morphology. Therefore you set us a challenge which you hoped we would fail however true the theory of evolution is.
You don't dare say: "Show me the evidence", 'cos we've got lots of evidence. Now you're down to: "Show me the results of an experiment that I hope no-one's ever done".
But oh look, they did.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 219 of 331 (476188)
07-21-2008 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 10:44 AM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
Babylon Enish Dictionary advantageous
adj. beneficial, profitable; helpful
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) Browse
Advantageous
(a.)
Being of advantage; conferring advantage; gainful; profitable; useful; beneficial; as, an advantageous position; trade is advantageous to a nation.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913), edited by Noah Porter. About
WordNet 2.0 Browse
advantageous
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adjective
1. giving an advantage; "a contract advantageous to our country"; "socially advantageous to entertain often"
(antonym) disadvantageous, harmful
(similar) beneficial, good
(see-also) expedient
2. appropriate for achieving a particular end; implies a lack of concern for fairness
(synonym) appropriate
(similar) expedient
Babylon English Dictionary beneficial
adj. advantageous; pleasurable, enjoyable
Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia Browse
HSBC Finance
"Beneficial" redirects here; for other uses, see Benefit.
"HFC Bank" redirects here; for the bank in Ghana see Home Finance Company
HSBC Finance Corporation is a financial services company and a member of the HSBC Group. It is the sixth-largest issuer of MasterCard and Visa credit cards in the United States. HSBC Finance Corporation was formed from the legal entity that had been known as Household International, and is now is expanding its consumer finance model via the HSBC Group to Brazil, India, Argentina and elsewhere.
See more at Wikipedia.org...
This article uses material from Wikipedia® and is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License
Babylon Spanish-English Browse
beneficial
adj. advantageous, profitable; pertaining to ecclesiastical beneficies
Babylon Portuguese-English Browse
beneficial
adj. beneficial, advantageous; pleasurable, enjoyable
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) Browse
Beneficial
(a.)
Receiving, or entitled to have or receive, advantage, use, or benefit; as, the beneficial owner of an estate.
x
(a.)
King.
x
(a.)
Conferring benefits; useful; profitable; helpful; advantageous; serviceable; contributing to a valuable end; -- followed by to.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913), edited by Noah Porter. About
Michaelis Moderno Dicionário Portugus-Ingls (Portuguese-English) Browse
be.ne.fi.ci.al
[benefisi'aw] adj m+f (pl beneficiais) beneficial, relative to ecclesiastical benefits.
Obviously beneficial & advantageous mean the same thing in that they are synonyms, therefore a beneficial mutation would be an advantageous mutation.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 220 of 331 (476224)
07-22-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by rueh
07-18-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Anyone want to talk about the topic?
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 221 of 331 (476225)
07-22-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by bluegenes
07-18-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Yes, Let's dance on topic and not around it.
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 222 of 331 (476226)
07-22-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 10:14 AM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?Still not on topic
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 223 of 331 (476227)
07-22-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by AlphaOmegakid
07-21-2008 10:44 AM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-21-2008 10:44 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 224 of 331 (476228)
07-22-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2008 10:50 AM


Re: Canidae prone to rapid evolution
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2008 10:50 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 225 of 331 (476229)
07-22-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2008 11:12 AM


Re: Can you see my hands waiving?
Still not on topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2008 11:12 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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