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Author Topic:   Becoming Less Wrong
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 27 (476565)
07-24-2008 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by subbie
07-24-2008 6:56 PM


Re: The goal
And, while we cannot ever know, to 100% certainty, whether we are moving toward the "truth," that doesn't prevent the "truth" from existing.
It prevents "truth" existing for us.
While agreeing that an objective truth exists, I don't think we'll ever get to where we can have it as "truth".

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 Message 12 by subbie, posted 07-24-2008 6:56 PM subbie has replied

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 Message 14 by subbie, posted 07-24-2008 7:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 27 (476603)
07-25-2008 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by subbie
07-24-2008 7:17 PM


Re: The goal
It doesn't prevent "truth" from existing. It simply prevents us from knowing as an absolute certainty that we've found it.
Yeah, that's what I was saying.
Let me give an example. My understanding is that we are quite certain that matter is composed of molecules, which are in turned composed of atoms. (Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this, it's not exactly my field.) Now, if in fact this is actually the case, then we have discovered a truth. We consider this truth to be tentatively held, because we might discover something tomorrow that will change it all. But our considering it to be tentative doesn't prevent us from being correct if in fact we are.
Even if we are, in fact, absolutely correct, our tenativity prevents it from ever becomming "truth" to us.
So we, ourselves, cannot have it as "truth" (even though it might actually be).
It might be "truth" in reality, but for us it will never be "truth".

Also, since we don't know what the "truth" is beforehand. How can we work towards it? If we don't know what it is, how can we know we are going towards it? We can't. So all we can do is move away from what we do know is wrong.

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 Message 16 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 10:01 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 27 (476616)
07-25-2008 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by bluescat48
07-25-2008 10:01 AM


Re: The goal
It is good that we cannot have it as "truth." If this were the case we would still be in the dark ages.
Non sequitur.
What was "truth" in the 14th century in many cases is no longer truth.
Then it wasn't "truth". "Truth" as it is used here refers to the actual objective reality. What was thought to be "truth" in the 14th C. was not actually the "truth".

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 Message 16 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 10:01 AM bluescat48 has replied

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 Message 18 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 27 (476620)
07-25-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by bluescat48
07-25-2008 10:40 AM


Re: The goal
My point exactly.
Oh. I thought your point was that if we could have things as "truth" then we'd still be in the Dark Ages
How do we know if what we assume as truth is in fact truth.
When it comforms to the actual objective reality.
The point is that many theories have been either altered or overturned thus showing what is believed to be truth, many in reality, not be.
But theories aren't believed to be "truth" in the first place, its tenative.

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 Message 18 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 10:40 AM bluescat48 has replied

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 Message 20 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 12:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 27 (476639)
07-25-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by bluescat48
07-25-2008 12:30 PM


Re: The goal
But theories aren't believed to be "truth" in the first place, its tenative.
Not believed, but accepted as truth until a more plausible theory is found.
They are not accepted as "truth", though. People might believe that they are "truth", but that is not a scientific position.

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 Message 20 by bluescat48, posted 07-25-2008 12:30 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 27 (476653)
07-25-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by onifre
07-25-2008 1:20 PM


Good post, onifre.
I have one minor quibble..
For those with religious beliefs, they seek no further 'truths' because they feel they already have it.
So science may try to get closer to being 'less wrong', but people with religious belief feel they already are 'right'.
A little too generalized, dontcha think? I'm a person with religious beliefs but I don't fit your descriptions.
I think you probably meant some specific relious beliefs rather than in a general since, but still....

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 Message 22 by onifre, posted 07-25-2008 1:20 PM onifre has replied

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