Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 151 of 210 (476464)
07-24-2008 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Jazzns
07-23-2008 4:08 PM


Re: Is ther really even any room to compromise on torture?
Jazzns writes:
John McCain's stance on torture is WORSE precicely because he should know better!
Well since nam science has come a long way so the methods are very different today than then.
Sure there are those who are good soldiers but there are many more who would sell their soul in a minute for no pain.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Jazzns, posted 07-23-2008 4:08 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Jazzns, posted 07-24-2008 9:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 152 of 210 (476496)
07-24-2008 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by ICANT
07-24-2008 1:20 AM


Re: Is ther really even any room to compromise on torture?
Well since nam science has come a long way so the methods are very different today than then.
I just cannot believe that you are still justifying his stance on torture.
If anything is a deal breaker for people, it should be this. This is insane!
When did we become a country where people think that this is okay?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2008 1:20 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 1:10 AM Jazzns has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 153 of 210 (476594)
07-25-2008 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Jazzns
07-24-2008 9:33 AM


Re: Is there really even any room to compromise on torture?
Jazzns writes:
I just cannot believe that you are still justifying his stance on torture.
If anything is a deal breaker for people, it should be this. This is insane!
When did we become a country where people think that this is okay?
I said:
Message 145
I did not say I agreed with any of what I said.
Other than:
I believe someone who has experienced something knows more about it than someone who has never experienced that something.
Message 148
I am not debating whether it is right or wrong.
Only that McCain would be better qualified to know if it works under laboratory tests.
So quit putting words in my mouth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Jazzns, posted 07-24-2008 9:33 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:21 AM ICANT has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 154 of 210 (476595)
07-25-2008 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
07-25-2008 1:10 AM


Re: Is there really even any room to compromise on torture?
So quit putting words in my mouth.
I am not saying that YOU endorse torture.
I am just absolutely baffled by anyone who would defend a man like John McCain who DOES endorse torture.
You see for me, torture is a deal breaker for all the reasons I listed before. It is a stain upon our nation.
John McCain is not a patriot. No one is who would EVER compromise on this issue. No one put it better than George Washington. I'll quote it again for you.
George Washington writes:
Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 1:10 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:19 AM Jazzns has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 210 (476624)
07-25-2008 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Jazzns
07-25-2008 1:21 AM


Re: McCain
Jazzns writes:
I am just absolutely baffled by anyone who would defend a man like John McCain who DOES endorse torture.
I have been arguing that McCain because of his days in the lab with his captors is better qualified to know whether torture works than someone who has never been tortured is.
What has what McCain believes about the use of torture got to do with his ability to know from his days in the laboratory with his captors whether it works or not. He was not the only POW there.
In Message 142 I said:
ICANT writes:
Do you know anyone better qualified to know if it works or not?
If he voted for it that means he did not feel it was inhumane.
He thought it could produce positive results.
In Message 144 you replied to the above:
Jazzns writes:
There are plenty of people who are better qualified to know if it works or not. What are John McCain's credentials when it comes to criminology and intelligence? Because you see, there are plenty of people who have studied torture and it is well understood among those people that it in fact does not work.
Saying that a POW is the most qualified to know if torture is effective is simply asinine.
In Message 145 I replied asking a question:
ICANT writes:
So you are saying a person that has never been exposed to torture would know whether it works better than someone who has experienced it.
To borrow your words that is 'asinine'.
In Message 147 you evaluate my reading and comprehension skills. Then inform me:
Jazzns writes:
Thats not what I said because you can't read.
I said that if McCain thinks torture works, it is irrelevant if he was once a POW or not, he is standing AGAINST the experts who have studied it that shows that it in fact DOES NOT WORK!
McCain's view is irrelevant because the experts know better than he does.
You make an assertion "that it in fact DOES NOT WORK!"
Do you know for a fact torture does not work?
In Message 149 you change up a little:
Jazzns writes:
John McCain should know more than anybody else that torture doesn't work. What I should have said is that it is asinine the thought that his time as a POW gives him a superior opinion to CONTRADICT the well known fact that torture does not work.
You state him being a POW gives him a superior opinion.
Well it does give him an opinion from the lab rat's prospective.
In this message you shout your disgust with people who would endorse torture. You are welcome to your opinion on that.
But that is not what I have been arguing and will not argue.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:21 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 11:44 AM ICANT has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 156 of 210 (476625)
07-25-2008 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by ICANT
07-25-2008 11:19 AM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
You state him being a POW gives him a superior opinion.
Seriously, please try to read it again.
Jazzns writes:
John McCain should know more than anybody else that torture doesn't work. What I should have said is that it is asinine the thought that his time as a POW gives him a superior opinion to CONTRADICT the well known fact that torture does not work.
I am saying that what is astounding is the thought that just because he was a victim, that his opinion on torture would be superior. The argument that you are taking.
I am saying, he should know better precisely because he was a victim.
It make it worse for John McCain, not better.
An analogy would be if instead of a torture victim he was a rape victim, yet voted against legislation for outlawing rape. Its at that level.
Rape, Murder, Torture. We MUST not tolerate anyone in our government condoning these things for any reason whatsoever.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:19 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:59 AM Jazzns has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 157 of 210 (476630)
07-25-2008 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Jazzns
07-25-2008 11:44 AM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
Jazzns writes:
Rape, Murder, Torture. We MUST not tolerate anyone in our government condoning these things for any reason whatsoever.
I don't care what your opinion of what we should tolerate or not tolerate is.
It has absolutly nothing to do with who would be best qualified to know if torture works or not.
You can either address this point or forget it.
I have no desire or intention of discussing your opinion of what is right and wrong on the issue.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 11:44 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 210 (476641)
07-25-2008 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jazzns
07-23-2008 10:50 AM


Re: Anyone but Bush or Bush-lite
I mean, here is a guy who voted FOR torture while at the same time highlights his time as a POW in almost every ad he has put out thus far.
McCain is politicking. He was one of the most outspoken critics of waterboarding, and other forms of torture, mostly on the basis that he claimed to sympathize due to him having been tortured.
What he also did, however, was support a veto on the Waterboarding ban, suggesting that he is playing both sides of the field. McCain's rationale was this:
“I said there should be additional techniques allowed to other agencies of government as long as they were not torture. I was on the record as saying that they could use additional techniques as long as they were not cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment."
The problem is that a successful veto would most likely allow the CIA to continue using methods that might constitute as torture per the Geneva Convention.
It is more of McCain flip flopping.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jazzns, posted 07-23-2008 10:50 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 159 of 210 (476649)
07-25-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ICANT
07-25-2008 11:59 AM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
It has absolutly nothing to do with who would be best qualified to know if torture works or not.
You can either address this point or forget it.
I did address is. You just decided to skip that part in your reply. The whole other part of my post DID talk about who would be best qualified. John McCain should know exactly that torture does not work because in fact it DID NOT work on him. He gave up false information under torture just to get it to stop. Just like it does on pretty much everyone else it is used upon.
I have no desire or intention of discussing your opinion of what is right and wrong on the issue.
Well for me supporting torture is sort of a big issue for a presidential candidate. It may not be for you and that is okay. Its America and you can defend someone who supports torture if you want to. But don't expect people to give you a pass for it.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:59 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 4:08 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 160 of 210 (476650)
07-25-2008 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Hyroglyphx
07-25-2008 12:53 PM


Re: Anyone but Bush or Bush-lite
McCain is politicking.
I mean that is obvious enough. But to me, this is an issue that is pretty sick to play politics with. Especially since he considers himself to be such an advocate for the troops. The morality and/or effectiveness aside, the danger it put our troops under when we fail to abide by humane treatment treaties should be enough to make any American be appalled that John McCain, or ANYBODY for that matter regardless of party or philosophy, would politicize this issue.
McCain's rationale was this
Yet even though he had been a champion of this cause he didn't work with his part to propose any reasonable alternatives. This was a total political pissing contest and when it comes to the issue of torture, I want leader who will have a little bit more reverence and humility.
It is more of McCain flip flopping.
I am actually quite shocked that the Republicans ended up on McCain. Not that the rest of their field was much better but damn, almost anyone else that was running has more integrity than this guy.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-25-2008 12:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-25-2008 2:31 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 210 (476657)
07-25-2008 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Jazzns
07-25-2008 1:57 PM


Re: Anyone but Bush or Bush-lite
this is an issue that is pretty sick to play politics with. Especially since he considers himself to be such an advocate for the troops. The morality and/or effectiveness aside, the danger it put our troops under when we fail to abide by humane treatment treaties should be enough to make any American be appalled that John McCain, or ANYBODY for that matter regardless of party or philosophy, would politicize this issue.
Well, the troops are in danger of themselves being tortured no matter what stance the US takes on torture. Heck, half of the people beheaded by Al Qaeda were there in defense of Iraq against Coalition forces. These individuals have a different mindset. If they think it will terrorize people to mutilate them, they're all too willing to that in the name of Allah.
Yet even though he had been a champion of this cause he didn't work with his part to propose any reasonable alternatives.
The problem with interrogation and torture is that the lines can be blurred easily. The CIA has reasoned that since waterboarding has no lasting damage, physically, that it is therefore acceptable. And since it instills in the victim a sense of terror and panic, they reason they can make people talk without resorting outright torture and mutilation.
The problem is that any of it is unreliable. Many people in Al Qaeda or Coalition forces that are out in the field really aren't privy to the kind of information that their handlers and superiors have. They often honestly don't know much. So torturing the hell out of them is not only cruel, but it also produces disinformation. Its counterproductive.
If you were being tortured and were pressed for information, but you honestly didn't know any significant information, but your captors thought you did and kept persisting, eventually you are going to make things up just so you can have them stop torturing you.
It's a no-win situation for both the captors and the captive.
I am actually quite shocked that the Republicans ended up on McCain. Not that the rest of their field was much better but damn, almost anyone else that was running has more integrity than this guy.
I know most conservatives weren't happy with it over his habitual fence riding. I guess they reason that he is a lessor of two evils since they don't trust Obama.
Personally I don't like either of the candidates. I will either be voting for an unknown third party candidate, or I won't vote for either. I am washing my hands of this one.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : edit to add

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:57 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-26-2008 3:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 170 by kongstad, posted 08-13-2008 3:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 162 of 210 (476691)
07-25-2008 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Jazzns
07-25-2008 1:51 PM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
Jazzns writes:
Its America and you can defend someone who supports torture if you want to.
Why do you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth?
You keep asserting that I am supporting McCain's support of torture.
I said he should know whether it worked or not better than someone who had never been tortured.
I have in no message endorsed torture by McCain or anyone.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 1:51 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 4:17 PM ICANT has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 163 of 210 (476692)
07-25-2008 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by ICANT
07-25-2008 4:08 PM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
You keep asserting that I am supporting McCain's support of torture.
Then please clarify...
ICANT previously writes:
Do you know anyone better qualified to know if it works or not?
If he voted for it that means he did not feel it was inhumane.
He thought it could produce positive results.
What are you saying here when this is in response to my criticism of McCain and his torture vote. Because to me it very much seems like you are apologizing for him.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 4:08 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 4:31 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 164 of 210 (476695)
07-25-2008 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Jazzns
07-25-2008 4:17 PM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
Jazzns writes:
What are you saying here when this is in response to my criticism of McCain and his torture vote. Because to me it very much seems like you are apologizing for him.
I don't apologize for my belief's or opinions to anyone. Why would I apologize for someone else?
I am saying he has got an opinion based on his experience.
I did not even hint whether it was right or wrong.
He is entitled to his opinion just as you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to my opinion.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Makes no difference whether it is right or wrong.
And in my lifetime I have discovered everybody has an opinion.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Jazzns, posted 07-25-2008 4:17 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Discreet Label, posted 08-19-2008 7:29 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 165 of 210 (476754)
07-26-2008 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Hyroglyphx
07-23-2008 6:50 PM


Re: Re-Obama
Dr A writes:
But you want to attack him for what he thought when he was "at the age of 12 or 13".
NJ writes:
There is nothing in the book describing any kind of change of heart.
That's rather easily refuted. He writes:
Obama writes:
I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13 ...
In his book, on the other hand, he does mention his mother's race. Indeed, he refers to it in that passage. It is, therefore, clear that he underwent a "change of heart" since the age of 12 or 13.
He doesn't say, "I am afrocentric," rather, what he writes about is afrocentric.
Do explain.
When you are writing about past events, you have to use past tense.
Yes, and what Obama did when he was 12 or 13 is in the past.
Couple that with what we do know today, his wife, his pastor, and it starts to make sense. I am not saying he is out there rolling with the Black Panthers beating up non-blacks all day long. What I am saying is that he is sympathetic to such causes ...
And unless you can produce evidence for what you're saying, you should be ashamed of yourself. Has he ever said a word that could be interpreted by even the most hysterical of racist bigots as implying in any way whatsoever that he is "symapthetic" to "beating up non-blacks all day long"? No? How about his wife or his pastor, then?
In the meantime, here is a critique I found that expresses the exact same kind of understanding that I came to after reading Dreams:
An interesting example of the attempted substitution of snide innuendo, pitiable self-deception and bizarre illogic for facts.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-23-2008 6:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024