EvC Forum: Best evidence for Creation

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Topic: Best evidence for Creation

ICANT

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Message 108 of 176 (477499)
08-03-2008 9:35 PM

Reply to: Message 106 by lyx2no
08-03-2008 7:39 PM

Re: Points In Time

lyx2no writes:

Are we pretending we have an intellectual understanding of imaginary time? Or are we just using it as one of our magic phrases to fudge our argument to save us from having to admit we are drawing a blank when it comes to how the Universe really works?

I know how the universe works but that is not the discussion here.

The discussion here is what is the best evidence a creationist has for creation.

lyx2no writes:

Why would we convince ourselves of such a thing when we must realize that the honest position would be to admit complete ignorance?

Please notice I say "IF" the universe did not exist but had a beginning (origin) (came into existence) that is the best evidence for creation (something created, brought into existence)Message 73

There is no time involved of any kind.

There is no point of any kind involved.

The only thing involved is existence and non existence.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 106 by lyx2no, posted 08-03-2008 7:39 PM		lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 113 by lyx2no, posted 08-04-2008 8:53 AM		ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 109 of 176 (477501)
08-03-2008 9:49 PM

Reply to: Message 103 by onifre
08-03-2008 4:50 PM

Re: No evidence so far.

onifre writes:

your link wasn't to Son Goku's explanation.

Link worked for me but I am set to 100 messages. It is message 295.

onifre writes:

I don't see how a particular temperature creates a problem for String theory. Could you explain...

My question is how would you get any information prior to that hot place. GR breaks down nothing is known at that point.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 103 by onifre, posted 08-03-2008 4:50 PM		onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 110 by onifre, posted 08-03-2008 10:10 PM		ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 111 of 176 (477505)
08-03-2008 10:38 PM

Reply to: Message 110 by onifre
08-03-2008 10:10 PM

Re: No evidence so far.

onifre writes:

Exactly, so why would you presume it has an origin?

It either has an origin or it has always existed in some form.

onifre writes:

Why would you presume it has a creator?

I would presume a creator because of my personal beliefs.

But I have not been talking about a creator.

I have said and maintain that:

'IF' the universe did not exist, as stated by Hawking and Peebles but had a beginning that is the best evidence I as a creationist (one who believes in creation) can offer for creation.

I go on to maintain as I have throughout this thread that I believe that it has always existed in some form.

But that does not say that it did not have a beginning in the form as we see it today.

I believe it did have a beginning in the form we see it today.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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	Message 110 by onifre, posted 08-03-2008 10:10 PM		onifre has not replied

ICANT

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Message 114 of 176 (477520)
08-04-2008 9:41 AM

Reply to: Message 112 by cavediver
08-04-2008 5:48 AM

Re: Existence

cavediver writes:

No, you don't. Even if the existence is only 14 billion years old, there has never been an 'absence of any thing'.

So you want to limit existence to the approximate age of the universe.

I have no idea how you define existence.

To me existence is the opposite of nonexistence.

Existence = some thing exists.

Nonexistence = no thing exists.

Now lets try the dictionary.

Existence - definition of existence by The Free Dictionary

N ex·is·tence
1. The fact or state of existing; being.
2. The fact or state of continued being; life:
3.
a. All that exists:
b. A thing that exists; an entity.
4. A mode or manner of existing:
5. Specific presence; occurrence:

Since there is existence now...
And there was nonexistence 14 billion years ago as you say.
There had to be a creation of existence 14 billion years ago as it did not exist.

cavediver writes:

ICANT writes:

But if the universe had a beginning that is the best evidence for creation.

It is only evidence for creation when viewed from a very naive understanding of space-time.

You have told me many times there is nothing outside the universe.

Therefore space-time exists only inside the universe as well as gravity, matter, and all energy.

So what is there to understand about space-time.
It did not and does not exist for the universe to exist in. Matter and energy did not exist to form all the things in the universe, until the universe existed.
Gravity did not exist until well into expansion.
These things only exist inside the universe.

If the universe did not exist, had a beginning as stated by Hawking and Peebles it had to be created by some means.

If that was by some magical brane's banging together it was still creation.
If it was by some magical string expanding into the universe that was still creation.

If it was by any other means it was still creation.

Notice all three of these methods would be outside the universe.

'If the universe had a beginning/origin, It had to be created. (brought into being/existence)

That is the best evidence for creation.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 112 by cavediver, posted 08-04-2008 5:48 AM		cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 115 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-04-2008 11:03 AM	ICANT has not replied
	Message 116 by Rahvin, posted 08-04-2008 11:08 AM	ICANT has replied
	Message 117 by bluegenes, posted 08-04-2008 11:10 AM	ICANT has replied
	Message 130 by cavediver, posted 08-05-2008 3:39 AM	ICANT has not replied

ICANT

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Message 118 of 176 (477538)
08-04-2008 11:14 AM

Reply to: Message 113 by lyx2no
08-04-2008 8:53 AM

Re: No You Don't

lyx2no writes:

No one knows how the Universe works.

I know you believe that. But just because you believe it does not make it a fact.

As I said this is not the place to discuss what I know or do not know.

This thread is about Brians question:

Brian writes:

So, creationists, what do you consider to be the best evidence for creation and why?

My answer:

If the universe did not exist and had a beginning/origin that is the best evidence for creation (brought into existence).

Because it makes a lot more sense than saying it poofed into existence from an absence of any thing as cavediver has assured be there has never been an absence of any thing.

lyx2no writes:

I need to know how you define "create"; i.e., does a tree "create" shade?

You can find my definition of beginning and creation Here

The tree does not create the shade just as the ground does not create the tree.

lyx2no writes:

Making a statement conditional does not protect the statement from examination. Especially when the statement has the form: IF God and his angels exist then they are real. The premise should not be a definition of the conclusion.

Do you have physical evidence that God and angels are real and exist today?

There is physical evidence the universe exists today. It is real.

Hawking and Peebles say the universe had a beginning. Hawking says the universe did not always exist.

So how did it begin to exist?

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 113 by lyx2no, posted 08-04-2008 8:53 AM		lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 122 by lyx2no, posted 08-04-2008 10:27 PM		ICANT has replied

ICANT

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Message 119 of 176 (477547)
08-04-2008 12:18 PM

Reply to: Message 116 by Rahvin
08-04-2008 11:08 AM

Re: Existence

Rahvin writes:

Fortunately, this doesn't depend on cosmology, because the flaw is your root assumption: all things that have a beginning have a creator.

Where in my statement did I mention a creator.

You are the one assuming a creator.

If two branes collided and caused the universe to begin to exist wouldn't that fulfill my statement.

ICANT writes:

'If the universe had a beginning/origin, It had to be created. (brought into being/existence)
That is the best evidence for creation.

It makes no difference what brings the universe into existence.

If it did not exist as Hawking says and has a beginning as Hawking and Peebles say, it had to be brought into existence by some means.

Because it is real here and now.

Rahvin writes:

Your basic assumption is completely bogus. A storm system has a beginning, and yet it's a natural phenomenon without a creator. Earthquakes have beginnings, but no creators. Stars have beginnings, but no creators. Galaxies have beginnings, but no creators.

Does a storm have a cause?
Does an earthquake have a cause?
Do stars have a cause?
Do galaxies have a cause?

cavediver says the universe does not have causality. Message 61

Rahvin writes:

You say that the fact that the Universe has a beginning is the "best evidence" for a creator,

Where did I say this?

I said in the message you are replying to the last two sentences:

"If the universe had a beginning/origin, It had to be created. (brought into being/existence)

That is the best evidence for creation."

Rahvin writes:

you're just repeating nonsense.

Did the universe not exist as Hawking says?

Did the universe have a beginning as Hawking says?

Could you please explain how if the universe did not exist as Hawking says.

Exists today without having an origin/coming into being which is creation.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 116 by Rahvin, posted 08-04-2008 11:08 AM		Rahvin has not replied

ICANT

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Message 120 of 176 (477549)
08-04-2008 12:34 PM

Reply to: Message 117 by bluegenes
08-04-2008 11:10 AM

Re: Existence

Hi bluegenes,

I will remind you as you did me that we need to read the simple english and not jump to conclusions.

bluegenes writes:

So, existence was created 14 billion years ago by a non-existent creator, was it?

How fascinating!

You are replying to a message to cavediver where I said:

"as you say"

So to answer your question. NO

Existence has no beginning and no end.

Only the things that exist in existence has a beginning and end.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 117 by bluegenes, posted 08-04-2008 11:10 AM		bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 128 by bluegenes, posted 08-05-2008 3:29 AM		ICANT has not replied

ICANT

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Posts: 6769

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Message 123 of 176 (477570)
08-04-2008 11:01 PM

Reply to: Message 122 by lyx2no
08-04-2008 10:27 PM

Re: I Concede

lyx2no writes:

f you say that is what you think is the best evidence for creationism I can only disagree by calling you a fibber.

Which post did I say: 'the best evidence for creationism' in.

I have continually said:

If it did not exist as Hawking says and has a beginning as Hawking and Peebles say, it had to be brought into existence by some means.

"If the universe had a beginning/origin, It had to be created. (brought into being/existence)

That is the best evidence for creation."

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 122 by lyx2no, posted 08-04-2008 10:27 PM		lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 124 by Rahvin, posted 08-04-2008 11:12 PM	ICANT has not replied
	Message 131 by Admin, posted 08-05-2008 8:11 AM	ICANT has not replied

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