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Author Topic:   Spotting Beretta's "designer" {Now only 1 summation message per member}
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 180 of 315 (477219)
07-31-2008 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Beretta
07-31-2008 8:42 AM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Beretta writes:
Well how about the'evolution in the gaps' fallacy represented by the Cambrian explosion....
Again you jump straight into ToE criticism! We're talking about ID, not the ToE.
So do you concede that there is no ID hypothesis?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Beretta, posted 07-31-2008 8:42 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Beretta, posted 07-31-2008 9:41 AM RickJB has replied
 Message 211 by Buzsaw, posted 08-01-2008 9:03 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 190 of 315 (477231)
07-31-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Beretta
07-31-2008 9:41 AM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Beretta writes:
The Cambrian explosion is evidence for creation.
What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"?
What evidence points to God being the cause of the Cambrian explosion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Beretta, posted 07-31-2008 9:41 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 198 of 315 (477254)
07-31-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by cavediver
07-31-2008 3:22 PM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Beretta writes:
Yep - hangs head in shame.
It's a trick that I fell for in RAZD's thread on dogs. I was determined not to get too bogged down here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by cavediver, posted 07-31-2008 3:22 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by bluegenes, posted 07-31-2008 4:02 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 199 of 315 (477255)
07-31-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Beretta
07-31-2008 9:54 AM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Hi Beretta, thought I would restate my questions from post 190:
RickJB writes:
What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"?
What evidence points to God being the cause of the Cambrian explosion?
Percy asked similar questions...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Beretta, posted 07-31-2008 9:54 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Beretta, posted 08-01-2008 6:01 AM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 201 of 315 (477261)
07-31-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by bluegenes
07-31-2008 4:02 PM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Bluegenes writes:
Beretta's not playing tricks with intention, I think. In fact, he's honest (except perhaps with himself) and sees his arguments as honest. He is a very polite poster, as well, and is patient when some of us lose our patience with him, which is commendable.
I agree. Beretta is a good poster for sure.
There you go, Beretta, you have a fanclub!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by bluegenes, posted 07-31-2008 4:02 PM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Beretta, posted 08-01-2008 6:22 AM RickJB has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 208 of 315 (477333)
08-01-2008 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Beretta
08-01-2008 6:01 AM


Re: Cambrian
RickJB writes:
What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"?
Beretta writes:
How about separately created since they bear no similarities to the multitude of forms found in the Cambrian.
Firstly, stromatolites aren't the only pre-cambrian fossils. The existence of various other forms (like the Cloudina, for example) will play havoc with your "similarity" argument. Incidentally, ID proponents are often skeptical of homology since each creature is thought of as a unique "design", so it seems odd for you to rely on it now.
Secondly, and most importantly, before you go proposing an earlier creation you need to get to work on a model for the workings of your Cambrian "creation" if you want to do real science. Not an easy task you've set yourself, Beretta...
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Beretta, posted 08-01-2008 6:01 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 223 of 315 (477423)
08-02-2008 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Buzsaw
08-01-2008 9:03 PM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
Buz writes:
Since the antithesis to ID is ToE isn't it on topic and in fact, paramount for Beretta to criticize ToE in order to argue for ID?
No.
Firstly, though ID can be viewed as being antithetical to the ToE, there could, hypothetically, be other mechanisms besides design or evolution, so arguing against the ToE does not automatically mean that design is demonstrated by default.
Secondly, without any positive evidence for design Beretta has nothing to argue for. He is limited to pointing out what he believes are flaws in the ToE. If the ToE is so flawed, however, why refer to it at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Buzsaw, posted 08-01-2008 9:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Beretta, posted 08-04-2008 9:19 AM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 229 of 315 (477523)
08-04-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Beretta
08-04-2008 9:19 AM


Re: Antithesis of Evolution
Beretta writes:
Well it certainly seems that those are the only ideas on the table -like I've said before, irrespective of who the creator is or what the alternative mechanism of evolution might be, either things were created or they created themselves -those are our two major options.
Refuting evolution doesn't remove the possibility that life arose without a creator in some other way.
Beretta writes:
Like I've mentioned before, the complexity of living systems IS the main evidence for creation.
But "complexity", as you put it, presents no real problems for the ToE. Complexity can and does arise from chemical and physical propeties alone.
Beretta writes:
The lack of evidence for evolution and it's supposed mechanism....
The ToE relies on mountains of evidence. To claim a lack of evidence is self-delusion, especially when you rely entirely on the "falsity" of that evidence to define your position!
Beretta writes:
...and the evidence against evolution having occurred is also evidence for creation.
No it is not. Evidence against the ToE would refute the ToE as a mechanism, it would not equate to a demonstration of the existence of a creator.
The ToE has nothing to do with design, so why refer to it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Beretta, posted 08-04-2008 9:19 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 235 of 315 (477529)
08-04-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Beretta
08-04-2008 10:03 AM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
Beretta writes:
What about the impossibility of converting things like reptiles to birds by considering the known rate of mutations
This is more argument against the ToE!
We're talking about evidence for ID...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Beretta, posted 08-04-2008 10:03 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 237 of 315 (477531)
08-04-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by dwise1
08-04-2008 10:20 AM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
Dwise1 writes:
Laddies, this one is just for Beretta, please.
Beretta can find ways to argue against the ToE all day long. The point of this thread is to get ID proponents like Beretta to identify positive evidence for ID.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by dwise1, posted 08-04-2008 10:20 AM dwise1 has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 250 of 315 (477604)
08-05-2008 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Beretta
08-05-2008 8:41 AM


Re: Antithesis of Evolution
Beretta writes:
So in other words, the fact that evolution has no real good evidence (apart from minor variations) to support it and the fact that the evidence against evolution is becoming rather overwhelming.
Even if this weren't a rather touching example of wishful thinking, it would still leave you no nearer to establishing ID as an alternative to evolution.
Beretta writes:
How about we go for intelligent indecision about what actually happened and teach the controversy in the meantime?
In science there is no controversy because ID has no hypothesis backed by evidence! What will you teach these kids about ID?
Beretta writes:
That's like saying that you are guilty of a crime you have not committed until you produce the one that actually did it.
No - entirely the opposite, in fact. It's similar to the assumption of innocence until guilt is demonstrated. If you can't show any positive evidence that God created us, then he is innocent of all charges!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Beretta, posted 08-05-2008 8:41 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 259 of 315 (477667)
08-06-2008 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by dwise1
08-05-2008 3:56 PM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
The Croc heart issue is for another thread. The aim of this thread is to discuss evidence for a designer.
I don't wish to play at being a moderator, but I'd be grateful if you started another thread on this issue.
Cheers-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2008 3:56 PM dwise1 has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 270 of 315 (477735)
08-07-2008 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Beretta
08-07-2008 2:52 AM


Re: Creation and Intelligence
Beretta writes:
Seti scientists agree that if they were to find 'coded information' on a radio signal it would be evidence of intelligence.
Not always, certain types of stars called Pulsars generate regular signals entirely naturally.
Beretta writes:
So, SETI scientists have a plan for detecting an unseen intelligent being based on detectable design. How will they do this?
Their hypothesis is based on the fact that an intelligent civilisation has been observed, namely humanity. That's not to say that their hypothesis isn't limited to a human perspective - other forms of intelligence may have radically different means of communication. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that an intelligent civilisation does exist on this planet. From that fact they can build a hypothesis.
You, on the other hand, have yet to show that there is a "designer" at work in the universe. You have no such data on which to build a hypothesis....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Beretta, posted 08-07-2008 2:52 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 271 of 315 (477736)
08-07-2008 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Beretta
08-07-2008 2:20 AM


Beretta's scientific mask slips...
Beretta writes:
Prophecy is about the future. Watch Israel and when Iran, Russia and various middle east countries attack her, watch them go down.Sept 2001 was the beginning of a new Jewish 7-year period...........you may feel vaguely sad and just a large part irritated about our 'delusion' about God, but it's nothing compared to the pain we feel for you.
When you are reduced to paranoid eschatological rants then it's time to concede that you have lost the debate.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Beretta, posted 08-07-2008 2:20 AM Beretta has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 311 of 315 (478029)
08-11-2008 4:44 AM


I think that this thread makes it quite clear that ID consists of little more than religious apologetics and ToE misrepresentation.
Thanks to all who took part.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Percy, posted 08-11-2008 8:37 AM RickJB has not replied

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