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Author | Topic: Spotting Beretta's "designer" {Now only 1 summation message per member} | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: Well how about the'evolution in the gaps' fallacy represented by the Cambrian explosion.... Again you jump straight into ToE criticism! We're talking about ID, not the ToE. So do you concede that there is no ID hypothesis? Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: The Cambrian explosion is evidence for creation. What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"? What evidence points to God being the cause of the Cambrian explosion?
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: Yep - hangs head in shame. It's a trick that I fell for in RAZD's thread on dogs. I was determined not to get too bogged down here.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Hi Beretta, thought I would restate my questions from post 190:
RickJB writes: What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"? What evidence points to God being the cause of the Cambrian explosion? Percy asked similar questions...
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Bluegenes writes: Beretta's not playing tricks with intention, I think. In fact, he's honest (except perhaps with himself) and sees his arguments as honest. He is a very polite poster, as well, and is patient when some of us lose our patience with him, which is commendable. I agree. Beretta is a good poster for sure. There you go, Beretta, you have a fanclub!
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
RickJB writes: What about Precambrian fossils like stromatolites? Was that "pre-creation"? Beretta writes: How about separately created since they bear no similarities to the multitude of forms found in the Cambrian. Firstly, stromatolites aren't the only pre-cambrian fossils. The existence of various other forms (like the Cloudina, for example) will play havoc with your "similarity" argument. Incidentally, ID proponents are often skeptical of homology since each creature is thought of as a unique "design", so it seems odd for you to rely on it now. Secondly, and most importantly, before you go proposing an earlier creation you need to get to work on a model for the workings of your Cambrian "creation" if you want to do real science. Not an easy task you've set yourself, Beretta... Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Buz writes: Since the antithesis to ID is ToE isn't it on topic and in fact, paramount for Beretta to criticize ToE in order to argue for ID? No. Firstly, though ID can be viewed as being antithetical to the ToE, there could, hypothetically, be other mechanisms besides design or evolution, so arguing against the ToE does not automatically mean that design is demonstrated by default. Secondly, without any positive evidence for design Beretta has nothing to argue for. He is limited to pointing out what he believes are flaws in the ToE. If the ToE is so flawed, however, why refer to it at all?
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: Well it certainly seems that those are the only ideas on the table -like I've said before, irrespective of who the creator is or what the alternative mechanism of evolution might be, either things were created or they created themselves -those are our two major options. Refuting evolution doesn't remove the possibility that life arose without a creator in some other way.
Beretta writes: Like I've mentioned before, the complexity of living systems IS the main evidence for creation. But "complexity", as you put it, presents no real problems for the ToE. Complexity can and does arise from chemical and physical propeties alone.
Beretta writes: The lack of evidence for evolution and it's supposed mechanism.... The ToE relies on mountains of evidence. To claim a lack of evidence is self-delusion, especially when you rely entirely on the "falsity" of that evidence to define your position!
Beretta writes: ...and the evidence against evolution having occurred is also evidence for creation. No it is not. Evidence against the ToE would refute the ToE as a mechanism, it would not equate to a demonstration of the existence of a creator. The ToE has nothing to do with design, so why refer to it?
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: What about the impossibility of converting things like reptiles to birds by considering the known rate of mutations This is more argument against the ToE! We're talking about evidence for ID...
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Dwise1 writes: Laddies, this one is just for Beretta, please. Beretta can find ways to argue against the ToE all day long. The point of this thread is to get ID proponents like Beretta to identify positive evidence for ID.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: So in other words, the fact that evolution has no real good evidence (apart from minor variations) to support it and the fact that the evidence against evolution is becoming rather overwhelming. Even if this weren't a rather touching example of wishful thinking, it would still leave you no nearer to establishing ID as an alternative to evolution.
Beretta writes: How about we go for intelligent indecision about what actually happened and teach the controversy in the meantime? In science there is no controversy because ID has no hypothesis backed by evidence! What will you teach these kids about ID?
Beretta writes: That's like saying that you are guilty of a crime you have not committed until you produce the one that actually did it. No - entirely the opposite, in fact. It's similar to the assumption of innocence until guilt is demonstrated. If you can't show any positive evidence that God created us, then he is innocent of all charges!
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
The Croc heart issue is for another thread. The aim of this thread is to discuss evidence for a designer.
I don't wish to play at being a moderator, but I'd be grateful if you started another thread on this issue. Cheers-
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: Seti scientists agree that if they were to find 'coded information' on a radio signal it would be evidence of intelligence. Not always, certain types of stars called Pulsars generate regular signals entirely naturally.
Beretta writes: So, SETI scientists have a plan for detecting an unseen intelligent being based on detectable design. How will they do this? Their hypothesis is based on the fact that an intelligent civilisation has been observed, namely humanity. That's not to say that their hypothesis isn't limited to a human perspective - other forms of intelligence may have radically different means of communication. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that an intelligent civilisation does exist on this planet. From that fact they can build a hypothesis. You, on the other hand, have yet to show that there is a "designer" at work in the universe. You have no such data on which to build a hypothesis....
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Beretta writes: Prophecy is about the future. Watch Israel and when Iran, Russia and various middle east countries attack her, watch them go down.Sept 2001 was the beginning of a new Jewish 7-year period...........you may feel vaguely sad and just a large part irritated about our 'delusion' about God, but it's nothing compared to the pain we feel for you. When you are reduced to paranoid eschatological rants then it's time to concede that you have lost the debate. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
I think that this thread makes it quite clear that ID consists of little more than religious apologetics and ToE misrepresentation.
Thanks to all who took part. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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