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Author Topic:   The consciouness paradox
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 1 of 44 (477269)
07-31-2008 7:21 PM


Let's face it, deep down at the nano level we are all made up of the same hundred atoms that comprise all living and non living things on Earth. At the nano level, there is no way to tell if the substance being tested is a living or a non living thing. That's so because everything on Earth is made out of the hundred or so atoms found in the Mendeleev table.
Now, if we look at it in another way, a carefully chosen pack of atoms(me for example) takes a look at some of its atoms(my hand for instance) and I start to think what I can do with my hand(i.e. at the very nano level, we have atoms using other atoms to perform tasks). I am perplexed at the idea that my eyes, made only of atoms are looking at other atoms(my hand) and some of my other atoms(my brain) are aware that there are atoms in the form of a hand. I am aware we are not just a pile of atoms, but a carefully selected and sequenced pile of atoms, but at the nano level, that is what's happening. There is no life at all at this level, and at the smallest scale of things, everytime you have a look at yourself - some of your atoms(the building blocks of all matter) are looking at other atoms and they know of their existence(aka consciouness). Isn't that a paradox and a conundrum that some atoms combined in such a way that different substances could be created that would be the building stones of living organisms and those atoms would be self-aware that they exist and that they are just atoms?
PP. English is my second language, please bear with me if I have not been able to convey very explicitly my thoughts.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 17 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-07-2008 6:55 PM Agobot has not replied
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 8 of 44 (477308)
08-01-2008 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
08-01-2008 1:14 AM


Consciousness is a paradox all by itself. We are made purely of atoms found everywhere on Earth, just like a house or a complex machine built by us or an animal. At the nano level we are all the same. If it's not a paradox, explain to me how a machine, a pile of bricks, or whatever creation of chance and nature or the human will(that will still be a pile of atoms) could be self-aware of its existence? It seems to me the only way for us to create any kind of artificial consciousness is through programming, but that would not really constitute a conscious being/thing but a puppet on strings(which we pull with our pre-programming). So basically, for more than 4 billion years, there have been both non living and living stuff(although not yet self-aware). Then, just a few millions years ago we develop self-awareness and suddenly we know of our existence and we start looking for a reason why we exist in the form we do and the reason why we've developed this self-awareness. If it's not a paradox, can you suggest a way in which we create a machine that would be self-aware of its existence? Can you propose a way for a computer to become aware that it's made of atoms(besides pre-programming it- that wouldn't really be consciousness)? Even in the very distant future - how would we accomplish this? Just a rough idea would be OK.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2008 1:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2008 10:21 AM Agobot has replied
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 9 of 44 (477326)
08-01-2008 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
08-01-2008 12:31 AM


mark24 writes:
To paraphrase Carl Sagan, "Life is how the universe knows itself".
Exactly. It seems we are the cognitive aparatus of the universe, with all the absurd implications of this statement. The 109 elements in the Mendeleev table combined in such a way that a carefully selected bunch of atoms/us/ could develop consciouness towards the other atoms found elsewhere in the Universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mark24, posted 08-01-2008 12:31 AM mark24 has replied

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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 11 of 44 (477348)
08-01-2008 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
08-01-2008 10:21 AM


What homework are you talking about? Artificial intelligence entails heavy, intensive pre-programming. Comparing our consciousness to artificial intelligence pretty much says that we are pre-programmed. Are you saying we are puppets on strings or was it a bad example?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2008 10:21 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 21 of 44 (477869)
08-08-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2008 11:39 AM


Artificial intelligence is exactly that; artificial.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Yes, and intelligence.
"Natural" intelligence is to a large degree a survival tool of natural selection. IMO, those of our ancestors that had developed self-awareness had a better chance of knowing the world around them and consequently survive better. "intelligence" is the most powerful means of survival and IMO we should view it as just that. Other species have developed wings, poison, resistance to poison, etc in the survival battle but it seems our species were the fittest adopting intelligence and logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2008 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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