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Author Topic:   Spotting Beretta's "designer" {Now only 1 summation message per member}
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 315 (477184)
07-30-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Beretta
07-29-2008 12:13 PM


The Creationist ID Dilema Relative To Science
Beretta writes:
Well it should nonetheless be on the table for discussion because nobody can know that God didn't create life and nobody can prove that chemicals just arranged themselves by chance into a self replicating organism. So rather than saying that the one option is fact without being able to prove it, keep things open for debate. .............
Nor is it scientific to ignore the very real possibility that God or some intelligent designer may be in the picture and that naturalism may not be the only 'reasonable' explanation to consider.
Hi Beretta. I see our ID position as Biblical Creationists as non-compatible with what is considered science here at EvC and most of the science area for that matter.
As it appears from the little I've read of you, your position is similar to mine as a Biblical literalist. Correct me if I'm mistaken here.
Since the Biblical record states that mankind and all of the animals were created individually from the earth/dust. Thus unless we can show substantial evidence that the Biblical ID god, Jehovah does indeed exist and the Biblical record is his record of how he did it, so far as the folks go here, we have no scientific argument.
All we can do is interpret the archaeological and other evidences as supportive of the Biblical record when indeed that is possible.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Beretta, posted 07-29-2008 12:13 PM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by subbie, posted 07-30-2008 11:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 170 by Coyote, posted 07-30-2008 11:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 171 by Beretta, posted 07-31-2008 3:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 315 (477400)
08-01-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by RickJB
07-31-2008 8:51 AM


Re: God of the gaps fallacy
RickJB writes:
Again you jump straight into ToE criticism! We're talking about ID, not the ToE.
So do you concede that there is no ID hypothesis?
Since the antithesis to ID is ToE isn't it on topic and in fact, paramount for Beretta to criticize ToE in order to argue for ID?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by RickJB, posted 07-31-2008 8:51 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2008 9:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 223 by RickJB, posted 08-02-2008 3:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 315 (477402)
08-01-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Percy
08-01-2008 8:20 AM


Re: Cambrian
Percy writes:
For ID to become science it, too, must practice the scientific method.
Since Biblical IDists go with the sudden creation and design of all of the species from earth dust, it appears that Hell will freeze over before Biblicalist IDers will ever pass the scientific method test.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Percy, posted 08-01-2008 8:20 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 9:24 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 227 by Beretta, posted 08-04-2008 9:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 315 (477405)
08-01-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Coyote
08-01-2008 10:11 AM


Re: Discovery Institute's goals
Coyote writes:
The only way you will get tens of thousands of scientists to adhere to this type of stunted science is through theocratic rule. (Bring the Inquisition out of retirement?)
.......Or better yet, that tens of thousands of scientists suddenly become aware that there is a higher dimension of intelligence in the universe than what we observe physically on this little speck in the universe we call Planet Earth.
According to Biblical prophecy that time will come. Until then, well, itsy bitsy planet earth's eency weency human creatures believe what they see with their beady little eyes and are capable of assimilating into their pea brains is all that exists in this immeasurable wonderfully complex universe.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2008 10:11 AM Coyote has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 315 (477407)
08-01-2008 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by subbie
08-01-2008 9:24 PM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
subbie writes:
You do understand, don't you, that the problem isn't with the conclusions that IDers arrive at that scientists object to? It's the methods. That's why Percy said that ID must practice the scientific method to be scientific.
Perhaps then you could help us out by suggesting a scientific method for testing sudden intelligently designed creation of all of the species from earth's dust.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 9:24 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 9:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 315 (477408)
08-01-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Coyote
08-01-2008 9:27 PM


Re: Will the read ID please stand up
Coyote writes:
No. ID, as it is being pushed currently, is clearly religion lite. It is not science.
It is an old, discarded idea that was dusted off and sent into battle again after the U.S.
Nonetheless, the majority of intelligent Americans of sound mind, including many scientists still believe it is factual and logical.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2008 9:27 PM Coyote has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 315 (477411)
08-01-2008 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by subbie
08-01-2008 9:48 PM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
subbie writes:
Well, a necessary first step would be to abandon the assumption of a creator. As you yourself mentioned in a different thread, the IDist approach is to try to interpret all evidence based on the assumption of a creator. As I explained, this is the antithesis of the scientific method.
Well now, isn't that an intelligent option? Just, for the sake of compatibility with secularism, try to erase from one's mind and thinking what one knows to be true; that no creator god, Jehovah of the Bible exists. Surely, Subbie, you can't be serious.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Correct punctuation

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 9:48 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 10:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 315 (477416)
08-01-2008 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by subbie
08-01-2008 10:17 PM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
subbie writes:
What you seem to have forgotten, or perhaps never knew in the first place, is that creationism was the prevailing paradigm in the study of natural history at the time that Darwin conceived of the ToE. The problem was that as more and more was learned about the natural world, it became obvious to everyone who studied the natural world that this paradigm could not account for what was observed.
Despite what creos like to say, scientists did not accept the ToE because of a wave of secular antagonism towards religion. The scientists who accepted the ToE were virtually all men of faith, the christian faith to be exact. However, they were also men of science, and it was apparent to them that the ToE explained many, many things in nature, but the belief in a creator god explained none.
Creationism had its day. But it lost in the field of science. And, barring a series of remarkable new discoveries, there's no going back to it, no matter what most intelligent people of sound mind or a miniscule percentage of scientists believe.
I can appreciate what you're saying from a secularist POV, Subbie. The problem is that so many of us apply the logic relative to observed complex systems/organisms, the evidence we experience and observe relative to the existence of the Biblical god Jehovah, fulfilled prophecy, etc to the equation and conclude that the ID via Bibical Jehovah is the preferential and factual POV.
We see the prevailing ID paradigm as apostate to what was considered scientific when creationism had it's day. In fact, I see it as the apostacia (Greek) which the apostle Paul prophesied about in II Thessalonians 2:2 relative to the latter days.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 10:17 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 10:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 315 (477716)
08-06-2008 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by subbie
08-01-2008 10:46 PM


Re: The problem isn't the end, it's the means.
subbie writes:
Buzsaw writes:
We see the prevailing ID paradigm as apostate to what was considered scientific when creationism had it's day. In fact, I see it as the apostacia (Greek) which the apostle Paul prophesied about in II Thessalonians 2:2 relative to the latter days.
I don't understand a word of it, but it certainly doesn't seem to have anything to do with science.
I was going by memory. Make that II Thessalonians 2:3. Where I was going here is to show that much of science was ID creationist and more scientists were theists until what appears to be prophetically as the latter days. II Thess. 2:3 prophesies that this will be a period of apostacy from ID creationism and other Biblical doctrines. This, imo, is supportive to the existence of an ID creator.
I see other corroborative evidences for ID creationism as follows:
1. The complexity and preciseness of the atmospheric layers required for life on earth.
2. The exact distances of sun, moon and earth and likely other solar bodies effecting life on earth.
3. The precise temperature of the sun required for life on earth.
4. The chemical and material (water, soil, air, etc) makeup of planet earth necessary for life on earth.
5. Forces such as gravity precisely gauged to effect life on earth.
6. Fulfilled Bible prophecy
7. All cultures in world history religious.
8. Complexity of observed life on earth.
9. Complexity of the cosmos.
10. Observance of disorder to order in both the universe and on planet earth.
On and on one could go for reasons to go with intelligent design.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by subbie, posted 08-01-2008 10:46 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Coragyps, posted 08-06-2008 10:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 264 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2008 10:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 265 by bluegenes, posted 08-06-2008 11:05 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 291 by subbie, posted 08-09-2008 8:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 315 (477796)
08-07-2008 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by bluegenes
08-06-2008 11:05 PM


Re: Positive evidence of design?!?
bluegenes writes:
There's no reason why local pockets of order shouldn't exist. The sun's burning itself towards its end as a star powers local "order" on this planet. And aren't we being a bit subjective and/or contradictory in describing the green mould on this otherwise neat mineral planet as "order" when we constantly scrub our kitchen and bathroom surfaces to rid them of unwanted but persistent life?
To say fair, Buzsaw, you're the only one who has attempted to present positive evidence for the Designer on this thread, which is what it's supposed to be about, so your heart's in the right place, even if your head is struggling a little IMO! Well done.
1. We know of no other local pockets of evidenced design than planet earth which remotely equate to the quantitative order, complexity and life that is observed on planet earth.
2. LoTs just do not trend from disorder to order to the degree that we observe here on planet earth.
3. I have one key word for you and the other responders to my message. CORROBORATIVE. You people have your heads in the sand on this. When you add up all of the CORROBORATIVE necessities for life as observed on planet earth, the probabilities of them all being naturally (abe: simultaneously) in place is beyond reality.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add word

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by bluegenes, posted 08-06-2008 11:05 PM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by DrJones*, posted 08-07-2008 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 08-08-2008 7:02 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 315 (477912)
08-09-2008 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
08-08-2008 7:02 AM


Re: Positive evidence of design?!?
Percy writes:
Well, at least you're consistent, Buz. 500 years ago you'd be the guy running around yelling, "Get your heads out of the sand and look at the evidence, people, the earth does not move!"
Well perhaps, but I wouldn't have had all of those wonderful simultaneously corroborative evidences to support the common cliche of the sun rising and setting.
OTO, more likely I'd be the odd guy out, arguing logically for some non-conventional position.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 08-08-2008 7:02 AM Percy has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 315 (477968)
08-10-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by subbie
08-09-2008 8:45 PM


Corroborated And Simultaneous Key To The Argument
Subbie, your points relative to other possibilities supportive of life might make some sense in and of themselves individually but collectively all requirements listed must be in place simultaneously for life to exist, no matter what the system is.
The likelihood of any system supportive of life having all of the requirements needful relative to all aspects of the system simultaneously would likely be impossible outside of ID.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by subbie, posted 08-09-2008 8:45 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by subbie, posted 08-10-2008 10:30 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 315 (478015)
08-10-2008 11:54 PM


Observational Trends
Thermodynamic Entropy Trend = Order to Disorder, decay, lifelessness etc.
Intelligent Design Trend = Disorder to Order, design, intelligence, complexity, life sustaining complex systems, etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-11-2008 4:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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