Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?

He's either an idiot, or for a deity, remarkably hard-up when it comes to paying for design plans. He uses the same basic body plan for fish, quadrupeds, bipeds, birds, etc. Why should us bipeds have to put up with a skeletel structure that designed for walking on all fours? Did God force us into second-hand body-plans post-fall, just so that we could enjoy the delights of back-pain?Why do we have sub-optimal eye design, especially compared to the octopus? Why do we have such stupid "programming" restrictions in the articulation of our arms? Did we not itch in that impossible-to-reach spot on our backs, pre-fall? Why are our genitals so exposed to damage?Why do we hurt, damage and even kill ourselves when we fall over? Was the ground softer pre-fall? Why do our bones break, limbs dislocate, etc? Why do we need to eat? Why do we need to breathe?If you can point out to me the guy responsible for all of this, I will not bow down and worship... I will laugh becasue he has made one hell of a joke. As an exercise in what physical laws can produce, the human life is a stroke of genius. As an exanmple of what a deity can spontaneously 'create', it's pathetic...(Misc Topics in C/E)Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Hi Bluejay, Possibly for some 'religious' this is true (I'm guessing Islam, your own Mormonism, etc.) but it is not mainstream Christian doctrine, where creation was good/perfect, and hardship is the result of the fall.

If I were the designer, it wouldn't be possible to lose fingernails, nor have those ever so delicate fingers break so damn easily. If I were the designer, you wouldn't have joints with such a pathetic mumber of degrees of freedom. And they certainly wouldn't need to use cartilage. If I were the designer, there would be no such things as blurry vision, colourblindness, nor indeed blindness. And your eyes would see a damn site better than they do now, and would have a much greater range of frequency reception. If I were the designer, you wouldn't need any of those protection mechanisms we have for our appallingly delicate eyes. Why the hell can I not fly??? If I were the designer, you would be soaring with the birds. The designer has taunted us with that one for millenia. To some extent, I already have. And it pisses me off. If I were the designer, you would never need worry about such things, nor any degenerative affliction. And if I were the designer, you would never have the need for your blood to coagulate. Actually, you wouldn't need blood. And these are just a few of the areas where I could do a hell of a lot better. Unless, that is, I was constrained within a physical/evolutionary framework...Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

And if I were an Intelligent Designer and could make a living thinking person, I'd make such a good job of it that they would not choose to be ungrateful, recalcitrant and blasphemous

Buz - for too long have I heard here at EvC about how this great design so obviously apparent in the Universe is evidence for a designer. I'm just pointing out that if this designer had carte blanche and our physical selves are what he came up with, then he made a really crap job. There is no blasphemy there - it is just coming to conclusions via the evidence. Now, if I wanted to blaspheme, I'd say something like...

quote:

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all I said was that bit of fish was good enough for Jehovah...

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ABE Sorry, just saving posts.Why does not having a crap design imply incapable of choice? In fact, it's the other way zaround. The designer made us up out of the physical laws of this Universe - which to all intents seems to rob us of free choice. If I were the designer, I'd simply make everyone out of magic, and simply give them free chocie. I think he missed trick there...Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Sorry, I don't follow. Why would actually taking care to make a great creation imply that the ID was paranoid?

No, you've completely lost me here. You seem to be saying that God proves that he is not afraid of making substandard humans by making substandard humans. Is that why we have so many hideous birth defects - it's just God proving that he's not afraid to do such things?

Me? I would not be afraid of anything... I would just not deliberately choose to make my creatures with such idiotic body plans.

I think the true ID'ists are few and far between... the vast majority fall straight into the Pandas and People category, and it is they plus the good old vanilla YECs that I am addressing. They may mumble on about information and DNA codes, but it doesn't take much reading between the lines (and usually, just reading the lines) to see the creation aspect hiding behind - if in doubt, just hammer them down on when humans first appeared. I would hazard that this goes for most of our recent ID/YEC crowd here.True ID, of the Salty and Behe mold, are most definitely scientific - pretty much falsified - but scientific non-the-less. I'm not addressing space-alien designers, pan-dimensional children playing with their toys, scientists creating universes in test tubes, nor whomever it was that made us look just like Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, etc.Perhaps I should change my title to "Why is the creator such an idiot?" - I was going for that but I was afraid of the taunts of "blasphemy"

Buz - pre-fall, what would have happened in adam had fallen out of a tree? From 100ft high? Or simply tripped over and landed on a sharp protruding stick? What stopped him choking on his fruit? Were his eyes actually well-designed at this stage, without a blind-spot? Did he get back-ache? And if he took a knife, and gave a local chimpanzee a good shave, would he have said to God - 'huh, why did you make me look just like that thing???'

I'm wondering if this thread should really be there... any defense raised will almost certainly be theological in nature. What do you think? I have no objections to a move...

Yes, it is called 'reductio ad absurdam' - a very powerful tool in mathematics and science. Yes, so would I. But we have seen the utter failure of such attempts here at EvC. We have been told of the mountains of evidence that points to fiat-creation but so little is brought to the table. Yes, the little that has been brought has been demolished, but the proponents apparently have not even begun to show the real evidence so they sit back, and smugly continue to deride our scientific efforts to understand the Universe, while we bleat about how they need to bring more evidence.I, for one, am sick of this behaviour - I look at the hours wasted by myself and others in trying to explain the science behind this Universe, as we understand it, and see that effort simply spat back at us. We have been extremely reactive and defensive in this debate. This one isn't for the peanut gallery as such - it is an offensive to demonstrate quite clearly to the cdesign proponentists that their position is extremely weak, ON THEIR TERMS. I have resisted starting this thread for a couple of years, because it can be a broad brush and we can already see that it causes angst to a degree with those outside the pure cdesign propentists. But I am sure that many of us have been thinking it, and biting our tongues out of courtesy.

Thanks, that's very generous of you. But I notice you're holding back on that omnipotence and omniscience... afraid that with those I might just knock up a creation that would have every living creature falling at my feet?

It's not - the failure is in our inability to respond to every post they make with 'very good, but where's your evidence for a designer?' Every time Berreta makes a dig at evolution in that thread, many of us make Pavlovian defences. And that constitutes the vast majority of that thread. Without the topic title, you'd be hard pressed to guess the specific topic. And what it really highlighted was our desire to defend science. As indeed we should. But I felt it was time for a thread where such defenses were not going to be required.

Now why can't everyone see this obvious point???Did Buz really ask how we'd get our nutrients without eating