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Author Topic:   The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 166 of 210 (476759)
07-26-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Hyroglyphx
07-25-2008 2:31 PM


Re: Anyone but Bush or Bush-lite
I know most conservatives weren't happy with it over his habitual fence riding. I guess they reason that he is a lessor of two evils ...
Yeah, that's McCain's big appeal for conservatives: they heard that they could rent Avarice and Wrath from him at very reasonable prices.
Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the calf seethed in its mother's milk.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 167 of 210 (476783)
07-26-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Hyroglyphx
07-23-2008 6:50 PM


Obama
an idiot reviewing Dream From My Father writes:
What does it say about the young Obama that he was well-nigh obsessed with his vain braggart of an absentee father but trivialized his mother’s accomplishments? What does it mean that he himself plainly can’t see that his father comes off in these pages as a world-class jerk and his mother as a woman of admirable self-discipline and quiet achievement?
Obama writes:
I know that she was the kindest, most generous spirit I have ever known, and that what is best in me I owe to her.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 150 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-23-2008 6:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 168 of 210 (478276)
08-13-2008 2:20 PM


Obama's foreign policy incompetence
can anyone else see what is wrong with this thought process?
Obama writes:
Obama, 47, speaking to reporters today during his weeklong vacation in Hawaii, stressed that the Security Council should play a major role in resolving the crisis.
He said the Security Council should pass a resolution calling for an immediate end to the violence and urged deployment of international peacekeepers in Georgia's breakaway states.
``We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation, but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past,'' Obama said.
``This is a clear violation of the sovereignty and internationally recognized borders of Georgia,'' Obama said. ``The UN must stand up for the sovereignty of its members, and peace in the world.''
source = Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Jazzns, posted 08-13-2008 3:14 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 169 of 210 (478280)
08-13-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Artemis Entreri
08-13-2008 2:20 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
The only thing I can see wrong is that AFAIK the UN Security Council includes Russia who have veto power over the actions of the council.
But I don't think that is necessarily a mistake because it would force Russia to reject international assistance for securing the disputed regions from Georgian attacks which is their excuse for getting involved in the first place. If they reject it, it only reinforces the criticism they have been taking that their actions are expansionist rather than reactionary.
I see nothing wrong, maybe you can point it out.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-13-2008 2:20 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 11:47 AM Jazzns has replied

  
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 170 of 210 (478284)
08-13-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Hyroglyphx
07-25-2008 2:31 PM


Re: Anyone but Bush or Bush-lite
The CIA has reasoned that since waterboarding has no lasting damage, physically, that it is therefore acceptable. And since it instills in the victim a sense of terror and panic, they reason they can make people talk without resorting outright torture and mutilation.
But lasting physical damage is not the measure for torture. Waterboarding is outright torture, the Allied ceratainly thought so when the executed people guilty of applying torture in the world war II. An the UN thinks so
The defitiion of torture, from 1984 by the united nations
quote:
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
Waterboarding inflicts severe mental suffering on the victim, and is by definition torture. To say otherwise is to lie.

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 171 of 210 (478333)
08-14-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Jazzns
08-13-2008 3:14 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
no you got it. As a founding and permanent member on the UN security concil Russia has veto power. I can't see them passing a resolution against themselves. I doubt Russia really cares what anyone thinks of their presence in the Caucasian region, I think they feel ties to that region just as PR China feels ties to Tibet and XingJiang.
I think it shows Obama, like many democrats, is relatively clueless on foreign policy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Jazzns, posted 08-13-2008 3:14 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Jazzns, posted 08-14-2008 11:49 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 172 of 210 (478335)
08-14-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 11:47 AM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
So you have nothing to say about my reasoning that if this were brought to the council it would basically be a 'call out' to Russia?
Are you trolling again?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 11:47 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 12:21 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 173 of 210 (478340)
08-14-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jazzns
08-14-2008 11:49 AM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
I dont think Russia cares about a "call out", but I think the UN is pretty useless to begin with (see the UN "safe area" of Srebenica). Russia (and the former USSR) has vetoed more resolutions (122) than any of the other 4 nations with veto power. The consensus of whether Russia is right or not isn't an issue. Russia controls the vast majority of natural gas exports that the EU imports. If you cut off Russia, then they cut off your gas. Georgia has to look beyond the EU for help on this one, lucky for them a major oil pipline runs through thier nation that we do not want the Russians to have access too. This is a tough one to call, but going through the United Nations Security Council is NOT the way to do it.
I guess this is part of the Obama HOPE strategy.
not trolling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Jazzns, posted 08-14-2008 11:49 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by kongstad, posted 08-14-2008 1:37 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 177 by Jazzns, posted 08-14-2008 3:19 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 174 of 210 (478343)
08-14-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
Russia (and the former USSR) has vetoed more resolutions (122) than any of the other 4 nations with veto power.
And since 1984 the US has used its veto twice as much as the other permanent members united. US have used its veto 41 times which is 10 times more than Russia in that period.
So if there is a problem with the security council then it must surely be the US and not Russia at its roots!
As a non US citizen I find it refreshing that a presidential candidate for once acknowledges that there is a world outside the US, and that might does not equal right. A concept the current administration and McCain seems unable to grasp. This is why the US is now a nation that has turned it back in human rights and the geneva convention, becoming a rogue, dangerous nations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 12:21 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

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 Message 175 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 2:09 PM kongstad has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 175 of 210 (478347)
08-14-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by kongstad
08-14-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
That is because the USA was protecting Israel (27 times since 1984). Which is rather odd since you think we do not care about the affairs of anyone outside our borders. If we were, as you say not "acknowledges that there is a world outside the US" then i doubt the USA would have vetoed those resolutions against Israel. Nice try though. We have always been a rogue nation. dangerous though? I guess that is based on perspective and opinoin.
stop preaching about human rights, genocide is always ignored by the UN. the USA is not the only guilty party in it.
- What did the UN do for Human Rights in Rwanda?
- In Srebenica there were 400 Dutch UN peacekeepers, and the area was termend a UN safe zone. What did that do to stop human rights violations against muslim bosnians?
- What is the UN doing in Darfur?
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : typo

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by kongstad, posted 08-14-2008 2:33 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 176 of 210 (478350)
08-14-2008 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
So kidnapping people from foreign soil. Torturing,keeping them in secret prisons, is just OK with all them fancy human rights?
Funny that someone would think that actually committing atrocities and war crimes (like the US is doing) is better than doing nothing (what you accuse the UN of doing).
And lets not derail the thread further by going into the vetoes "protecting" Israel. Its not as if the security council would have voted to wipe Israel of the map, if it wasn't for Israel. Several of the vetoes was to allow Israel to disregard the geneva convention, so at least the US knows its friends. I mentioned the record on vetoes because you seem to think the number of vetoes was significant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 2:09 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 177 of 210 (478360)
08-14-2008 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 12:21 PM


Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
Except for the fact that the tone and tact that Obama took is exactly what France and other intercessors used to get Russia to accept a ceasefire. The Bush/McCain/Rice tact of "consequences" for Russia got Putin to say to our President, "Fuck You". Literally, our President was cussed out by someone who is not, technically, the leader of Russia.
The Obama approach, (i.e. the rational approach that the rest of the world is using in this situation), brought results.
The saber-rattling of Bush/McCain brought ridicule.
You decide who is more incompetent.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 12:21 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 4:10 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 178 of 210 (478371)
08-14-2008 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Jazzns
08-14-2008 3:19 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
The Obama approach, (i.e. the rational approach that the rest of the world is using in this situation), brought results.
LOL,it did?
wikipedia writes:
On August 12, 2008, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that he had ordered an end to military operations in Georgia.
On August 12, Russian President Medvedev met the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and approved a six-point peace plan. Late that night Georgian President Saakashvili agreed to the text. Sarkozy's plan orignally had just the first four points. Russia added the fifth and sixth points. Georgia asked for the additions in parentheses, but Russia rejected them, and Sarkozy convinced Georgia to agree to the unchanged text.
On August 13, 2008, the Russians occupied both Gori and Senaki. Russian troops were seen on the road from Gori to Tbilisi, but they turned off to the north about an hour from Tbilisi, and encamped. Georgian troops occupied the road six miles (about 10 km) closer to Tbilisi.
On August 14, 2008, the Russians occupied Poti. Georgian troops tried to re-enter Gori, and failed; an attempt to institute joint patrols of Georgian and Russian police in Gori broke down, and there were signs of brief conflict.
the only results so far is Russia occupying a foreign nation! great job Obama/EU/rest of the world. great results!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Jazzns, posted 08-14-2008 4:50 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 08-14-2008 5:40 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 179 of 210 (478375)
08-14-2008 4:37 PM


There seems to be a problem in the fact that people actually think OBAMA has a Foreign Policy, or the McCAIN has a Foreign Policy...neither of them has anything but ADVISORS who tell them what their Foreign Policy will be.
Both camps play the Foreign Policy propaganda. They will do as they are told at the end of the day. Why do Americans feel their opinion matters in political affairs? Do you think that just because they give us the impression of democracy every 4 years somehow our voice counts? Please.
The whole debate on Foreign Policy begins and ends with financial gain for BOTH sides. Any policy that will help financial capital increase will be the policy adopted. Neither McCain nor Obama will ever have a say so on the matter, they will just be the poster child for the powers that be.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 180 of 210 (478377)
08-14-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 4:10 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
Yea, Russia has in fact stopped short of what they were CLEARLY positioning themselves to do which was to take the capitol. You know why they stopped? The French intervened!
You have both Bush and McCain standing up on podiums in the US doing nothing but critizing Russia and to what end? A "Fuck You" from Putin? (literally) Did that help?
I'll give you that the French didn't make the situation perfect. But they DID stop the killing. Yes Russia is still there and they will likely annex the break-away states.
The reason Russia is still in Gori, in undisputed territory, is to secure abandoned Georgian weapons from falling into irresponsible hands.
Most people in the US don't realize, and McCain and Bush certainly will never say it, that Georgia was the aggressor in this circumstance. Georgia was recklessly killing Ossetians in an attempt to take back the break-away states and since those people are Russian citizens, Russia of course took the opportunity to jump in.
Granted, I am not claiming that Russia does not have alterior motives. They likely wanted to do this for a very long time but Georgia gave them the excuse they needed.
Also, what kind of bullshit credibility does both Bush and McCain have, they both said this or something similar, "In the 21st centry, nations don't invade other nations". First of all, why is McCain parroting Bush on this? Second, how can they have the balls to stand there on a podium and say that while we have our armed forces in occupation of 2 different countries right in RUSSIA'S BACK YARD!?
You want to talk about incompetence!

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 4:10 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 5:32 PM Jazzns has replied

  
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