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Author Topic:   The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 181 of 210 (478378)
08-14-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by kongstad
08-14-2008 2:33 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence
I'll try and translate what I think you meant, because if you are a Dane, English may not be your 1st language.
So kidnapping people from foreign soil.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (one of the waterboardees) was taken into custody by the Pakistanis in Pakistan, and transfered into US custody. hardly a kindapping or, and its hard to say the pakistanis are foreign in Pakistan.
Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri (another Waterboardee) ws taken into custody in the UAE by the UAE. he has been transferred into US custody. in 2004 he was sentenced to death by a court in Yemen. Not kidnapped either. Also taken by nationals in thier own country.
Funny that someone would think that actually committing atrocities and war crimes (like the US is doing) is better than doing nothing (what you accuse the UN of doing).
funny you "know" what im thinking.
And lets not derail the thread further by going into the vetoes "protecting" Israel.
I was trying to make this about Obama. You are the one derailing this to be about war crimes, and human rights violations. Lets get back to Obama, I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by kongstad, posted 08-14-2008 2:33 PM kongstad has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 182 of 210 (478379)
08-14-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Jazzns
08-14-2008 4:50 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
Haha...the French. They didn't do anything. Sarkozy is the president of the EU. If he did anything, other than pander to Russia, he was acting for the EU, not France. The killing has not stopped. There was no compromise, Russia added two points to the peace proceeding and refused to accept anything from Georgia. the ceasefire is a joke, Russia is taking over Georgia. They are not protecting the Ossetians or liberating them, if they were then there is not reason for them to invade Georgia.
Georgia was recklessly killing Ossetians in an attempt to take back the break-away states and since those people are Russian citizens, Russia of course took the opportunity to jump in.
have any documentation on Geogrians "recklessly killing Ossetians" (i cant find anything). The Ossetians have Russian passports given to them by Russia in the early 1990s. Those people should go to Russia then. What kind of shady tactic is that to give citizenship to people in another country, so that you have some made up reason to attack? Maybe Saddam and the Taliban where killing American Citzens and that why we attacked. Great rationale. 9/11 happend on our soil, so dont try and go there.
what is the common problem in the last 10 years in the following regions: Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, North Ossetia, Georgia?
the answer is the Russian Feredation.
we have our armed forces in occupation of 2 different countries right in RUSSIA'S BACK YARD!?
Are you serious? Put down the kool-aid for a minute. WTF are you talking about? Iraq is hundreds of miles away from the Russian Border, and Afghanistan is over 1000 miles from Russia.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 183 of 210 (478380)
08-14-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 4:10 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
the only results so far is Russia occupying a foreign nation!
well, technically Russia is providing protection to a newly-independent country from its aggressive neighbour. Just like the US/Nato did with Kosovo-Serbia.
The situation in Iraq, now that would be occupying a foreign nation!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 4:10 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-14-2008 5:49 PM Legend has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 184 of 210 (478381)
08-14-2008 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Legend
08-14-2008 5:40 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
well, technically Russia is providing protection to a newly-independent country from its aggressive neighbour. Just like the US/Nato did with Kosovo-Serbia.
If you want to be technical about it...US/NATO in the Kosovo war only used strategic bombing and air attacks against targets in Yugoslavia. Kosovo was not occupied until the Yugoslavian forces retreated back into Serbia. US/NATO forces did not invade the Serbian Province of Yugoslavia after they had gained control of Kosovo, and continue to attack Yugoslavians in in Serbia after a ceasefire was agreed upon.
technically speaking it was not just like your example. nice try at spreading dis-information though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Legend, posted 08-14-2008 5:40 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 185 of 210 (478386)
08-14-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 5:49 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
US/NATO in the Kosovo war only used strategic bombing and air attacks against targets in Yugoslavia.
huh? I take it you're talking about the 1999 bombings of Serbia in response to the Kosovan ethnic conflict. I'm talking about this year's Kosovo declaration of independence.
Kosovo was not occupied until the Yugoslavian forces retreated back into Serbia.
Kosovo was not occupied. It declared its independence from Serbia and the US/Nato said they will protect it if it's attacked by Serbia (and they did). South Ossetia also declared indepedence from Georgia and Russia said it will protect it if attacked. And it did!
Why the double standards?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 186 of 210 (478390)
08-14-2008 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Artemis Entreri
08-14-2008 5:32 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
It does depend on who you read but even a casual knowledge of even mainstream coverage of this would have given you this. You seemingly have no clue.
Russian warplanes target Georgia - CNN.com
As many as 2,000 people had been killed in the capital of separatist Georgian province South Ossetia, according to a Russian ambassador.
"The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists. There is nothing left. It was wiped out by the Georgian military," the Russian news agency Interfax said, quoting the Russian ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko.
Tskhinvali residents who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were everywhere, according to The Associated Press.
The Guardian also reports the claim:
Georgia declares 'state of war' over South Ossetia | Georgia | The Guardian
As does the BBC:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Russian tanks enter South Ossetia
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was receiving reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov
Mr Lavrov added in televised remarks: "The number of refugees is growing. A humanitarian crisis is looming."
Russia said it would cut all air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday.
Meanwhile Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.
Witnesses said the regional capital was devastated.
Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, told AP news agency: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."
Your perception of what constitutes someone's "backyard" is absolutely ridiculous. 1000 miles is nothing. In the past we have gone berserk over influence into South & Central America from Russia. Countries who are more than 1000 miles away from us.
You also did not respond at all to what I said about Bush and McCain.
If Obama's position was so bad, how effective do you rate the response from John McCain?
You also completely missed the point about the hypocrisy. What gives McCain ANY moral authority to say, "in the 21st century nations don't invade other nations."
McCain: "In The 21st Century Nations Don't Invade Other Nations" | HuffPost Latest News
Did you completely and totally miss the point that we, the US, have invaded 2 countries in the 21st century?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-14-2008 9:35 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 210 (478391)
08-14-2008 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Jazzns
08-14-2008 9:28 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
Since this is all off-topic, I would like to invite anyone interested in the Georgian/Russian conflict to move to a more appropriate thread.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 188 of 210 (478435)
08-15-2008 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Hyroglyphx
08-14-2008 9:35 PM


Re: Obama's foreign policy incompetence? But what actually worked?
im there d00d. thanks its much appriciated.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 189 of 210 (478438)
08-15-2008 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Hyroglyphx
08-14-2008 9:35 PM


McCain's Warmongering is on topic
I disagree that this is entirely off topic. AE brought this up in the context of the the candidates responses to the situation which is entirely on-topic. Since then he has demonstrated that he really is not informed about the situation or about the history of geopolitics in this type of situation. That I agree should be remedied in a different thread.
I would still like someone to comment, on Bush and McCain's response to the invasion. That is on topic and does speak to their ineptitude and frankly, dangerous tact that they have taken.
I am not saying that Obama had the perfect response. I may even be critical of the it in that he seemed to get more hawkish the more he talked about it. But that does not change my opinion that what Bush and McCain did was not only not helpful, but unnecessarily antagonistic toward a country with whom we are already pissing off by installing missile defense systems on their borders.
Plus, the effect of their "intervention" was to get told off by the Russians. What that better than what Obama did? Did it help anything at all?
Putin knows that we can't do crap even if we wanted to. To get into it with Russia we would have to start up a draft and that would be suicide for the Republican who like to warmonger from behind podiums.

This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 190 of 210 (478441)
08-15-2008 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Jazzns
08-15-2008 11:36 AM


Re: McCain's Warmongering is on topic
I disagree that this is entirely off topic. AE brought this up in the context of the the candidates responses to the situation which is entirely on-topic. Since then he has demonstrated that he really is not informed about the situation or about the history of geopolitics in this type of situation. That I agree should be remedied in a different thread.
I would still like someone to comment, on Bush and McCain's response to the invasion. That is on topic and does speak to their ineptitude and frankly, dangerous tact that they have taken.
I am not saying that Obama had the perfect response. I may even be critical of the it in that he seemed to get more hawkish the more he talked about it. But that does not change my opinion that what Bush and McCain did was not only not helpful, but unnecessarily antagonistic toward a country with whom we are already pissing off by installing missile defense systems on their borders.
Plus, the effect of their "intervention" was to get told off by the Russians. What that better than what Obama did? Did it help anything at all?
Putin knows that we can't do crap even if we wanted to. To get into it with Russia we would have to start up a draft and that would be suicide for the Republican who like to warmonger from behind podiums.
translation:
I am a thread jacker and I refuse to move to a thread where I am on topic.
Im already over there I have repsonded to you in the other thread. come on over. Man up or shut up.

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 191 of 210 (478652)
08-19-2008 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Hyroglyphx
07-23-2008 6:50 PM


Re: Re-Obama
Just a point is that aside from the small number clips from individual sermons that came from Wright's pulpit Trinity's church has been characterized as a mainstream black church. Noting also that the style of Wright's sermons (minus again the clips shown on youtube etc.) are also in the mainstream of the way black pastors do preach. (wiki ironically also has a larger segment of those speeches analyzed textually Jeremiah Wright controversy - Wikipedia ). I'm thinking his words were more taken out of context to get a bit of sensationalism, in a dead media cycle, then anything else.
With that in mind, I say this mostly because I feel that you seem to not understand the underlying reason how such fiery preaching can arise. Black churches and the kind of preaching they do in describing the history and the situation that their congregations are in arises precisely because white folk decided that black people were not welcome in their churches. Its why mainstream black social theology is just slightly different from mainstream Christian social theology. Because, just like evolution, if you spend time away isolated from a larger group your own group is going to take on different characteristics. As to the reason why Obama spent 20 years there, what would you had him done gone and attend a white church, or look for another pastor who was more politically acceptable (hell why don't white people go and join a black church and get a feel as to how the and what the preaching means)??? Why should a few out of context sermons mean that Obama is a black supremacist??
quote:
There is nothing in the book describing any kind of change of heart. I would encourage you to scour the book(s) for any such renunciation. There is a pattern being established here. His own words indict him. His pastor, of whom he spokes so fondly of in the books, his own wife who makes tacit assertions that "black America" should "wake up" and vote for Barrack on the basis of his blackness. Something isn't quite right here, and quite frankly, it is disconcerting to see this kind of rationale coming from someone who might just be the next president of the United States.
I think perhaps you should consider reading his speech A More Perfect Union if someone's own words indict them. I also don't understand where you think Michelle said that black people should vote for Barack on his blackness, is it like that baseless rumor that was started that she used the word 'whitey' in that its unsubstantiated? Also if she had said it the 'media' would have been all over her for that sensational comment.
Also I point out that people have are known to take and speak fondly of people who have inspired them (I'm sure you've done it). And even if they do that its not as if they agree with everything with the people they are fond of. How can it be so upsetting that Obama was moved by his pastor, became fond of him but Obama can't disagree with his pastor on certain aspects?

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 192 of 210 (478653)
08-19-2008 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by ICANT
07-25-2008 4:31 PM


Re: McCain is weak on torture
quote:
I don't apologize for my belief's or opinions to anyone. Why would I apologize for someone else?
I am saying he has got an opinion based on his experience.
I did not even hint whether it was right or wrong.
He is entitled to his opinion just as you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to my opinion.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Makes no difference whether it is right or wrong.
And in my lifetime I have discovered everybody has an opinion.
On the other hand, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke. Calling McCain out on his irresponsible opinion of torture (just like calling out any other absurd opinion) is the socially responsible response.
Opinions do matter whether they are 'right' or 'wrong', in terms of being supported or not supported. Some opinions are more equal and more valid then others. I don't understand why you want to consign the world to some abstract form of opinion nihilism.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 193 of 210 (478694)
08-19-2008 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Artemis Entreri
07-11-2008 7:37 PM


A.E. writes:
i'll take your word on this. i moved to Virginia in May of 2008
in response to:
Jazzns writes:
For the first time in a very long time Virgina has a democratic governor. They got rid of a blatant racist when they ousted George Allen for Jim Webb. And this election cycle Warner was been consistently leading in the polls, is highly expected to win, even by the GOPs own analysis.
How about my word? I grew up in Virginia (left in '06 for CU). Mark Warner (aiming to replace John Warner in the Senate) was our first Democratic governor since 1994 (he was governor from 2002-2006). He was replaced by Tim Kaine (his prodigy, and Leuitenant Gov. or Attorney General).* Granted, Jazzns is slightly wrong--we've had a majority of democratic governors in the past century. We have not, as a state, voted for the democratic nominee since 1968--or since LBJ was elected President. I wonder why?
*by constitution, VA governors are limited to one consecutive term in office. The only one in recent history to serve twice was Godwin Jr. His terms in office were split by a separate governor, and Godwin actually changed parties--from Dem to GOP.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-11-2008 7:37 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 194 of 210 (479299)
08-26-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by kuresu
08-19-2008 5:48 PM


word.
im born and raised out of illinois. belive me my former senator is a clueless man who does what his handlers tell him to do. Obama is the 3rd buch term.

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 195 of 210 (479354)
08-26-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Artemis Entreri
08-26-2008 10:04 AM


I'll have my staff get back to you....
How many homes do you own? ...uhh....I'll have my staff get back to you.
What is your position on insurance plans providing Viagra but not birth control? ....uhh...I'll have my staff get back to you.
Its pretty obvious who is and who is not being handled in this campaign.
I volunteered for the Obama campaign while he was here. Obama reads his own news and likes to get the local paper to supplement his own reading. McCain has to get Cindi to check his email for him.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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