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Author Topic:   Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 151 of 352 (478557)
08-17-2008 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
08-17-2008 10:16 AM


Re: Provoking the designer
Since all are procreated (not created) we inherit effects of what came before.
Subbie's right, you are turning into an evilutionist. However, since lousy designs cannot possibly be selected for at the expense of perfect designs, your god must have specifically created the inferior, post-fall designs too. According to your model, he made them as punishments, to be visited against the innocent for generations to come. What a sick freak.
Thus all the warnings from the designer along the way.
In what sense can an infant with fragile-x be said to have been warned against actions committed thousands of years ago?
Ignore the designer and your descendent's suffer. Don't blame the designer.
But why not? The designer is the one who set all this in motion. He is the one who designed these tortures. He is the one who choose to visit the punishments upon the sinned-against as well as the sinner. He is the one who specifically designed cystic fibrosis, so that he might torture innocents with it.
What kind of benevolence is that? Why hold children responsible for the sins of their forebears? What kind of morality is that exactly?
Should we, as Agobot suggested, punish the modern youth of Germany for the sins of their Nazi forebears?
Should we punish Joseph Fritzl for imprisoning his family? Hey, why stop there? Let's punish his kids as well. They were clearly asking for it.
Pissed off about Russia's antics in Georgia? Blame Putin? Then let's kill his kids! After all, it's completely not their fault, so let's punish them terribly, along with his dog and anyone who happens to be nearby.
What kind of morality is this? A child with fragile-x can't be responsible for the actions of its long-dead ancestors. To punish that child for another's actions is immoral. Even worse, the child is the party who has been sinned against (denied a place in Eden). Do we punish the victim as well as the perpetrator? Are these the attitudes of a benevolent being? If so, how?
It's like the blessings of America such as freedom, prosperity, justice etc. We ignore the principles which brought them about and we loose them for us and our descendants.
It's not like that at all. Should America turn its back on its founding principles, that's unfortunate. Fortunately, Americans can then embrace those principles once again and put things right.
The child with fragile-x is stuck with it, no matter how good a person it might try to be. What's more, the American public may make mistakes. God is supposed to be above error. Your analogy is piss-poor.
Don't blame the auto maker if you ignore the instruction manual regarding servicing the product.
WTF? Are you even reading what is being said to you? If I ignore my body's needs and I suffer the consequences, that's one thing. What you are suggesting is that my distant ancestor commits the offence and I suffer for it, along with millions of others, including all those innocent children.
I ask again; what kind of morality is this?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 08-17-2008 10:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2008 2:53 PM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 158 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 8:53 AM Granny Magda has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 152 of 352 (478559)
08-17-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Granny Magda
08-17-2008 2:23 PM


Re: Provoking the designer
I ask again; what kind of morality is this?
Morality? Its just a bunch of "designer" stories cooked up by the shamans to keep their peasants in line so that they can retain their special position in society. Its a worldwide phenomenon. The Native Americans had their own stories, but at least they didn't create an arbitrary and capricious deity.
In spite of all the stories, and all the believers, so far, there is no evidence for any designer whatsoever.
Heinlein had this one right:
Edited by Coyote, : spelling

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Granny Magda, posted 08-17-2008 2:23 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Coragyps, posted 08-17-2008 3:07 PM Coyote has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 153 of 352 (478560)
08-17-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Coyote
08-17-2008 2:53 PM


Re: Provoking the designer
but at least they didn't create an arbitrary and capricious deity.
Your namesake and his alter-ego Raven could be pretty capricious when the mood struck....
Like when Coyote stole the Frog Women's vulva, f'rinstance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2008 2:53 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2008 3:31 PM Coragyps has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 352 (478561)
08-17-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
08-17-2008 10:16 AM


Re: Provoking the designer
It's like the blessings of America such as freedom, prosperity, justice etc. We ignore the principles which brought them about and we loose them for us and our descendants.
Are you talking about the nutcakes that voted for GWB and are about to vote for the madman McCain? If you are, then I agree with you here.

Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 08-17-2008 10:16 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 352 (478562)
08-17-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Buzsaw
08-17-2008 10:28 AM


Re: Provoking the designer
Why encumber the system with unnecessary tubes and apparatus when functions can be combined.
Because then choking to death or the closure of the urethra due to the enlargement of the prostate gland wouldn't be a problem?
Of course, if God knew before hand that humans would deserve horrible painful deaths, then this is indeed pretty good designing.

Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Buzsaw, posted 08-17-2008 10:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 156 of 352 (478563)
08-17-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Coragyps
08-17-2008 3:07 PM


Re: Provoking the designer
Your namesake and his alter-ego Raven could be pretty capricious when the mood struck....
Like when Coyote stole the Frog Women's vulva, f'rinstance.
Coyote is more the trickster than the vengeful all-powerful deity. And as in the cartoons, his tricks often backfire on him.
I think he's the type you'd rather have a beer with though.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Coragyps, posted 08-17-2008 3:07 PM Coragyps has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 157 of 352 (478564)
08-17-2008 4:40 PM


Topic seems to have gone bad
Closing it down.
There's a link in the "signature" for where to make your case that it should be reopened.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report Technical Problems Here: No. 1
Report Discussion Problems Here: No. 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
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Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 352 (480164)
09-01-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Granny Magda
08-17-2008 2:23 PM


Re: Provoking the designer
Granny Magda writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Ignore the designer and your descendent's suffer. Don't blame the designer.
But why not? The designer is the one who set all this in motion. He is the one who designed these tortures. He is the one who choose to visit the punishments upon the sinned-against as well as the sinner. He is the one who specifically designed cystic fibrosis, so that he might torture innocents with it.
1. That's like blaming GM or Ford Motor Co for what goes wrong with your Chevy or Ford when you ignore everything that the owner's manual prescribes. Most of our illnesses are due to un-natural living which subjects the body to disease, deterioration and death.
2. The wonder is that in spite of the degree of punishment we humans foolishly or accidentally subject our digestive systems and other body functions to, our wonderfully designed immune systems and other intricate functions repair injury and disease to accomplish amazing feats in healing and restoration of health.
GM and Ford, as intelligent as their designing engineers are, fall way short of our designer's inbuilt health restoration mechanisms.
3. You people think that all of the amazing biological wonders just happen randomly and naturally achieving what the combined expertise of all of GM and Ford's intelligent engineers can't begin to match.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Granny Magda, posted 08-17-2008 2:23 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by DrJones*, posted 09-01-2008 9:39 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 160 by Granny Magda, posted 09-01-2008 10:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 161 by Coyote, posted 09-01-2008 10:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 159 of 352 (480166)
09-01-2008 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Buzsaw
09-01-2008 8:53 AM


Re: Provoking the designer
when you ignore everything that the owner's manual prescribes
And what owner's manual do we have for the human body?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 8:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 10:36 AM DrJones* has replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 160 of 352 (480172)
09-01-2008 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Buzsaw
09-01-2008 8:53 AM


Re: Provoking the designer
1. That's like blaming GM or Ford Motor Co for what goes wrong with your Chevy or Ford when you ignore everything that the owner's manual prescribes. Most of our illnesses are due to un-natural living which subjects the body to disease, deterioration and death.
Firstly, I would love to see you substantiate that last claim. It's not really the point though. We are quite clearly talking about genetic disorders, maladies that people are born with, more than lifestyle diseases (although a human body that was able to withstand a degree more ill-use wouldn't be a bad idea).
I gave the specific example of fragile-X syndrome. That is something people are born with. It comes as part of the package, part of the design if we are believe you. It is as though you bought your brand new Ford and it came with an existing malfunction before you even got it out on the road. In such a case you would blame the manufacturer. I'm doing the same. You seem to be attempting to blame illness upon those who suffer from it, a shameful slander in my opinion.
I notice that you ignored the difficult questions again. I'll ask once more;
In what sense can an infant with fragile-x be said to have been warned against actions committed thousands of years ago?
If human frailty is caused by The Fall, how is it moral to punish infants for crimes they did not commit?
2. The wonder is that in spite of the degree of punishment we humans foolishly or accidentally subject our digestive systems and other body functions to, our wonderfully designed immune systems and other intricate functions repair injury and disease to accomplish amazing feats in healing and restoration of health.
GM and Ford, as intelligent as their designing engineers are, fall way short of our designer's inbuilt health restoration mechanisms.
What does that have to do with anything? No-one is denying that some aspects of the human body are amazing. This thread is addressing the obvious design failings, like congenital disease, poor eyesight, quadruped hips on a biped, etc. Those are what you need to explain.
3. You people think that all of the amazing biological wonders just happen randomly and naturally achieving what the combined expertise of all of GM and Ford's intelligent engineers can't begin to match.
I can't believe that you have been on this forum five years without coming to realise that your caricature is not what evolutionists believe. Naturally yes. Randomly no.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 8:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 161 of 352 (480179)
09-01-2008 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Buzsaw
09-01-2008 8:53 AM


Random?
3. You people think that all of the amazing biological wonders just happen randomly and naturally achieving what the combined expertise of all of GM and Ford's intelligent engineers can't begin to match.
Random? Who said anything about random?
Here is an on-line lecture that deals with this subject. It is titled Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell.
Researchchannel.org
    Pay particular attention to the "robustness" of the systems he is describing.
    By the way, this same lecture also puts to rest those computer models that "prove" evolution is impossible because the odds are too high. They make the same mistake with "random" and thus are modeling the systems incorrectly.

    Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 8:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 162 of 352 (480182)
    09-01-2008 10:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 159 by DrJones*
    09-01-2008 9:39 AM


    Re: Provoking the designer
    DrJones writes:
    And what owner's manual do we have for the human body?
    The designer's Biblical moral, cultural and social principles, set forth in the Bible/creature's operator manual, relate to what is best for body, mind and soul.
    A few examples:
    1. Parents require that children obey to become wise and safe.
    2. Treat others as you would have them treat you.
    3. Healthful sexual guidelines
    4. Quarantine transmittable diseases.
    5. Hygienic principles
    6. Work, exercise and Sabbath rest
    7. Care of orphans, widows, travelers/sojourners, etc
    8. Warnings about alcohol abuse, gluttony/overeating etc.
    9. Specifics about some foods as to preferences conducive to optimum health, such as the Daniel simple diet being superior to the king's meats and delicacies. (see the first chapters of Daniel)
    10. Soil conservation procedures such as resting the land periodically and composting waste etc so as to insure the quality of food for man and beast.
    11. Warnings against riotous living, rowdiness keeping bad company, etc. The Proverbs are full of these type of warnings on various social, cultural, hygienic, health and other counts conducive to long life, prosperity and the good life void of trouble and disease mentally and physically.

    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
    The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by DrJones*, posted 09-01-2008 9:39 AM DrJones* has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by Brian, posted 09-01-2008 10:52 AM Buzsaw has replied
     Message 166 by Coragyps, posted 09-01-2008 11:49 AM Buzsaw has replied
     Message 168 by DrJones*, posted 09-01-2008 6:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
     Message 169 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 6:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

    Brian
    Member (Idle past 4959 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 163 of 352 (480187)
    09-01-2008 10:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Buzsaw
    09-01-2008 10:36 AM


    Re: Provoking the designer
    The designer's Biblical moral, cultural and social principles, set forth in the Bible/creature's operator manual, relate to what is best for body, mind and soul.
    However, it is difficult to harmonise this with the evil, bloodthirsty tyrant Yahweh.
    Treat others as you would have them treat you.
    Joshua 6:21a They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it”men and women, young and old...
    Edited by Brian, : spellin!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 10:36 AM Buzsaw has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2008 11:20 AM Brian has not replied

    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 164 of 352 (480190)
    09-01-2008 11:03 AM


    Survival Of Fittest For Preservation Of Life
    The fittest of the designer's creatures will be the survivors to propagate the species. If what is not designed for longevity of the species ceases to be available or applied, the sooner the species will die.

    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
    The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 165 of 352 (480197)
    09-01-2008 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by Brian
    09-01-2008 10:52 AM


    Re: Provoking the designer
    Brian writes:
    However, it is difficult to harmonise this with the evil, bloodthirsty tyrant Yahweh
    Jehovah/Yahweh, the wise designer and manager of life, in his wisdom, has raised up kingdoms for the sole purpose of eliminating cultures which will eventually destroy life on earth, relative to both pagan nations and his own kingdom nation, Israel.
    Jehovah has raised up pagan kingdoms for the purpose of eliminating the evil ones of his own people, Israel so as to effect the survival of life and the nation because his people departed from his precepts and principles.
    This is all for the survival of the human species in a world where warfare between the good and the evil is being waged since the Edenic fall.
    Again, it is the ignorance and departure from the designer's precepts and not the incompetence of the designer that becomes problematic for the creature as the creature is designed.

    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
    The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by Brian, posted 09-01-2008 10:52 AM Brian has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by Rahvin, posted 09-01-2008 5:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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