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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 88 (47484)
07-25-2003 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 11:09 AM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
'God if you did send your son to die for my wrongs, if there is any truth to this then thankyou Jesus for dying for my wrongs'.
So, the death row inmate who has tortured and murdered people can say this moments before dying, and go to heaven, but the athiest, Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddist, Shinto, or whathaveyou who leads a moral, love-filled life, contributes to charity and is otherwise a wondeful member of society but doesn't say this prayer goes to hell?
God is an immature, egomaniacal prick, then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 07-26-2003 8:41 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 88 (47485)
07-25-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mark24
07-25-2003 7:29 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
Alternatively Jesus could have got a six pack, a pizza & a video for our sins, or thrown a wild party, including inviting the Jews & the Romans to an almighty bash for our sins. Or perhaps Jesus had a quiet night in after a hard weeks prosetylising for our sins. It makes no sense whatsoever that he had to die, in fact it is negligent & wasteful of God to allow such a pointless & unnecessary sacrifice for our sins, that, let's face it, aren't ours anyway.
Don't forget to be grateful.
You aren't supposed to feel grateful.
You are supposed to feel guilty and unworthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mark24, posted 07-25-2003 7:29 PM mark24 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 88 (47552)
07-26-2003 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
07-26-2003 8:41 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
No one said anything about these people you mentioned going to hell. ONLY YOU!
That's not true.
Didn't you say that nobody would get to go to Jesus' "party" (by which I am assuming that you mean 'go to heaven') unless they acknowledge that Jesus died for their sins?
So, where will the murderous, last-minute converter to Christianity go when they die, and where does the virtuous, loving, non-believer go when they die?
I am assuming that, to you, not going to heaven means that they will go to hell, but I could be wrong in my assumption.
Where will they go?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 07-26-2003 8:41 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 88 (47865)
07-29-2003 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 5:32 PM


quote:
Though you guys are determined to get me to say 'these people go to hell' I am not going to say it. My only point was that you acknowledge Jesus' actions. I admitt I said his 'party' but I was just trying to make my point. Buddhists, Hindu's e.t.c - I never even mentioned these people, and why? because I believe that each individual case is for God's judgement only.My only point was that you should acknowledge Jesus' actions.
But where does the loving, virtuous athiest who has been a model citizen of the world go after they die?
They have not acknowleged Jesus' actions, but they have not hurt anyone and, in fact, done a lot of good for others.
Where does the murderer who converts just before he dies go? They have acknowledged Jesus' actions, but has been a source of destruction and pain during their life.
Which is more important to God; actions or belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jake22, posted 07-29-2003 3:20 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 49 of 88 (47945)
07-30-2003 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jake22
07-29-2003 4:45 PM


quote:
Someone can hate me, put me down, or deny me credit for my great accomplishments. They may not commit crimes against me or inconvenience me, but I still wouldn't invite them to my home.
Isn't it a bit disingenuous for God to have created us with full knowledge that many of us would never hear about Christianity, or find it unsatisfying, or leave belief in the supernatural behind altogether due to lack of evidence, then punish us for our God-given natures?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jake22, posted 07-29-2003 4:45 PM Jake22 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Jake22, posted 07-30-2003 8:59 PM nator has not replied
 Message 52 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-31-2003 12:02 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 88 (48253)
07-31-2003 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NosyNed
07-31-2003 7:33 PM


quote:
"no matter"? no, that isn't true, it is possible for pretty smart mind to be blinded by belief in spite of pretty well any evidence.
Absolutely correct.
quote:
That's even true on the scientific side. New concepts sometimes are finally accepted as a consensus rather than with unanimity.
Actually, new concepts in science are always accepted as a consensus, and never on the basis of one, or even several, opinions.
Evidence is brought forth.
Others examine the methodology of the experiment or otherwise examine the evidence.
If everything checks out so far, others still then repeat the experiment to see if they get similar results.
quote:
The ability to ignore evidence is pretty much all powerful if the belief is strong enough, I would say.
That's true, but in science, those people are considered crackpots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NosyNed, posted 07-31-2003 7:33 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Jake22, posted 07-31-2003 8:22 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 88 (48254)
07-31-2003 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jake22
07-31-2003 7:44 PM


quote:
Real evidence is objective and convincing, of course. I have had that evidence from God, and it is just as valuable and convincing to someone else as to me, provided my word is worth anything.
The problem you have is the "objective" part.
You aren't an objective observer in this situation.
So I'm afraid that what you have is a "testimonial", not independent, verifiable, objective "evidence".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jake22, posted 07-31-2003 7:44 PM Jake22 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Jake22, posted 07-31-2003 8:18 PM nator has not replied

  
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