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Author Topic:   Ape to Man or Common Ancestor
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 38 (479316)
08-26-2008 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDarin
08-26-2008 11:52 AM


simple and complex
There are a lot of ways to answer the question which is why you my get a bit confused when reading different people's views.
For one thing "ape" is not necessarily a precisely defined term. It is just a colloquial expression that, most of the time, refers to a particular group of old world, tailless primates. Some people separate off the "great apes" from other apes. So "great apes" include chimps, bonoboos, gorillas and orangutans but not baboons. Some people include humans in the "great ape" group and some don't. (Certainly, there are good genetic and anatomical arguments to be made that we should be included but that general usage may trump that).
Since the term "ape" is fuzzy you could allow it to include a lot of extinct primates as well as modern man. So if we are "apes" so are H. erectus. And likewise so, perhaps, you could define the autralipithicines (Lucy) as an "ape" too. If you do that then we are decended from apes by definition.
However, what must always be made clear is that we are, no matter how you define things, NOT decended from modern animals like a chimp, gorilla or what have you. In that sense saying we are descended from apes is ALWAYS WRONG. And, most often, a person making such a statement only thinks of apes as being chimps and gorillas so they are wrong in what they say.
However, if you define "ape" to mean primate of some kind or another including all extinct forms then, by defnition, of course we are descended from an "ape".
What is actually the case when you attempt to avoid using poorly defined terms like "ape" is that we AND the extant other primates are all descended from some common ancestors. Chimps and we shared one about 6 million years ago. That common ancestor was NOT a chimp and was not a modern human.
To our uneducated eyes we might, if we saw one in the forest, think of it as being more chimp like than human like (it was probably pretty hairy for one thing). And even to an expert it may be anatomically a bit closer to a chimp since we have reason to believe that the line leading to humans has undergone more change than that leading to chimps in the time frame involved (not all lineages have to evolve at the same rate).
However, it might also have been a lot less chimp like that we might think at first glance. We don't have specimens of the last common ancestor ( I don't think) but there is reason to speculate that it may have been a bit more upright than modern chimps are for example.
Generally the likes of AIG use "Ape" to mean chimps or gorillas. We definitely did NOT evolve from a creature that was such an animal. How much like them it was is a subject for the experts to argue over. I'd guess it was somewhat more like them than like us. Instead of being exactly as different from us as from them I would make an uneducated guess and say it was 30% different from chimps and 60% different from us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDarin, posted 08-26-2008 11:52 AM TheDarin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by TheDarin, posted 08-26-2008 12:30 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 36 by NosyNed, posted 08-29-2008 7:59 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 38 (479330)
08-26-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by TheDarin
08-26-2008 12:30 PM


Soup?
It seems that the monkey to man visual that we have had shoved down our throats at the zoo and science exhibits would suit both camps better if they showed one line coming out of the "soup" and then splitting up into different creations (or mutations in the EVO case); it would be a much less antagonistic visual.
Don't you think?
What "soup"? That is only, to my knowledge used in references to origins of life. That is not the topic of discussion here.
What visual are you referring to? The cartoon that shows a series ending in a man or sometimes some funny ending? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with any science if that is the one you mean. It is a joke.
It would be informative to show as complete a bush of various primate forms as we have. There are a number of possible side branches in our family tree that could be shown. I'm not sure what you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by TheDarin, posted 08-26-2008 12:30 PM TheDarin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by TheDarin, posted 08-26-2008 2:47 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 38 (479339)
08-26-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by TheDarin
08-26-2008 2:47 PM


Re: Soup?
You forgot to explain what you meant by "soup".
If you want to carry on a discussion you'll have to keep up with all the thread you raise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by TheDarin, posted 08-26-2008 2:47 PM TheDarin has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 36 of 38 (479723)
08-29-2008 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
08-26-2008 12:12 PM


I was Wrong. We are closer
I'd guess it was somewhat more like them than like us. Instead of being exactly as different from us as from them I would make an uneducated guess and say it was 30% different from chimps and 60% different from us.
But it seems my wild ass guess was wrong according to this site discussing Haldane's dilema.
Page not found · GitHub Pages
This quote is about half way down.
[4] While we are around 240 genes away from the LCA, we are around 594 genes way from the chimp, they have fixed about 50% more genes since the LCA than we have. Most of the genes substituted are for immune and reproductive system genes, and only a handful seem to have anything to do directly with brain function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 08-26-2008 12:12 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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