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Author Topic:   Is complexity an argument against design?
andorg
Junior Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 9
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 122 of 142 (480314)
09-02-2008 11:24 AM


Complexity is a relative, not absolute notion
Complexity is not an absolute notion. It is like velocity - relative.
Complexity of any object relatively to the process that have created it is measured by logarithm of number of all objects that this process could have created.
For an automatic plant creating Windows XP installation disks, the complexity of such disks is zero - they are just exact copies of the original. For the Microsoft company the complexity of this disk is much larger, it took about two years of work of thousands programmers to create such a disk. And its complexity (relatively to the modern Microsoft company) is logarithm of number of all possible operating systems that this company could have produced. Perhaps this number is large. But logarithm of it is not so large.
This disk contains 700 MB information. And if we ask an alien to create Windows XP disk, then the alien will have to choose between all 2 in power 8 x 700,000,000 possible combinations of bits, as he has no process which creates the Windows XP disk. So for the alien this disk will be tremendously complex!
The same is for complexity of living organisms. Complexity of an elephant which is clone of an existing elephant is zero. Complexity of an elephant that is born in the Africa elephant population is log of total number of all possible elephants that could be born there. This number can be evaluated.
This is a common illusion, when people say that some object is complex and other is simple, based on the number of parts comprising these objects. A big rock consists of more atoms, than an elephant. Is the rock more complex?
This question is absurd. The correct question is: "Is the rock more complex than an elephant relatively to the process of creation of each one?"
Suppose, there is an island, populated with elephants. And all of the elephants are clones (or twins), i.e. possess the same DNA. Each time a new elephant is born on this island, it is a clone of its parent. And there are no mutations on this island and the elephants are hermaphrodites.
(I think, modern science could create such an island, just each time clone a new elephant).
So - what is the complexity of a newborn elephant on this island?
Its complexity is ZERO! There is only one possible elephant, so the number of possibilities is one, log (1) = 0. This is a completely simple elephant. But this is the same elephant, that we see in any zoo!
By the way, in everyday life we give the complexity the same meaning. One could say: a car engine is very complex. His/her friend would say: Not at all - it is very simple. The first one does not know how the engine is built, the second knows well. So if the first one was asked to build an engine from given parts, he/she would have to choose from lots of combinations of connecting these parts, while the second person would choose from a very small amount of combinations.

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Blue Jay, posted 09-07-2008 6:59 PM andorg has not replied

  
andorg
Junior Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 9
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 123 of 142 (480319)
09-02-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Adminnemooseus
07-29-2008 8:55 PM


Re: OFF-TOPIC SIDE NOTE and topic abandonment warning
The complexity argument is AGAINST design.
This is because only SIMPLE things can be designed. The complex things can only be evolved. Let's think, what any human being can design? Just what he/she learned to, just what is simple for him/her.
If you haven't studied airplanes - can you design them? No. But one who studied - can. But can this one (who studied airplanes) design some airplane that is not similar to any existing airplane?
Of course not! How airplanes are designed? An existing airplane model is taken, changed a bit and a new one is built. Could Boing 747 have been designed before the second world war?
Of course not! Even a million of designers together could not design such a thing at that time.
Why? Because Boing 747 required step-by-step, trial-and-error long way to appear. And at each step the current airplane model had to be checked by the environment - is it good or bad.
Of course you can just take airplane parts and connect them somehow and here is the new model. But the chance of this model to be GOOD is ZERO!
So to DESIGN is to do things that you already know to do. It is possible to create SIMPLE things by design, not complex. When designing, we are choosing a solution from a set of possible solutions.
The larger set of possible solutions, the more complex the solution. Complexity is related to number of possibilities. But if you need to choose from a very large set of solutions - you chance to choose a good solution vanishes! Because you never know in advance what is good.
Only the ENVIRONMENT knows. Only when a thing is created and put into environment where it needs to exist, it is possible to know if it is good or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-29-2008 8:55 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by miosim, posted 09-06-2008 8:34 PM andorg has not replied

  
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