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Author Topic:   Brain Evolution
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 4 of 43 (480452)
09-03-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
09-03-2008 2:36 PM


Straggler writes,
How did brains evolve? Why did brains evolve? What were the precursors to brains in evolutionary terms? Do we have living examples of various stages of brain evolution in existence now? If so what are they are what do they tell us about the evolutionary paths required to eventually lead to creatures with brains?
Heres a great link that should answer many of your questions.
http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/g-cziko/wm/05.html
I'll try to quote a few things from it to answer some of your questions.
Your question "What were the precursors in evolutionary terms?"
quote:
All living cells are surrounded by a cell membrane that separates the special chemical composition of its interior from that of the external world. This difference in chemical composition results in a small electrical potential between the inside and outside of the cell, in much the same way that a voltage exists between the two sides of a battery. When a part of a cell's membrane is disturbed in a certain way, it loses its electrical potential, becoming depolarized at the site of the disturbance. This sudden change in electrical potential can itself be a disturbance, causing additional depolarizations along the membrane. In most cells, such depolarization would not spread far, certainly not to neighboring cells. But a few changes in the shape and arrangement of cells (in just the way that neurons are fashioned) permits depolarization to propagate quickly from one neuron to the next, and allows it to travel quickly as an electrochemical signal from one end of an animal to the other.
Your question "Why did the brain evolve?"..."How did brains evolve?"
quote:
It is not possible to know exactly why the human brain evolved as it did, but consideration of the structural evolution of the brain and results of comparative research on human and nonhuman brains provides some useful clues. It is now believed that during the long evolution of our brain, nervous systems changed in four principal ways. First, they became increasingly centralized in architecture, evolving from a loose network of nerve cells (as in the jellyfish) to a spinal column and complex brain with impressive swellings at the hindbrain and forebrain. This increasingly centralized structure also became increasingly hierarchical. It appears that newer additions to the human brain took over control from the previous additions and in effect became their new masters. Accordingly, the initiation of voluntary behavior as well as the ability to plan, engage in conscious thought, and use language depend on neocortical structures. Indeed, the human neocortex can actually destroy itself if it wishes, as when a severely depressed individual uses a gun to put a bullet through his or her skull.
Second, there was a trend toward encephalization, that is, a concentration of neurons and sense organs at one end of the organism. By concentrating neural and sensory equipment in one general location, transmission time from sense organs to brain was minimized. Third, the size, number, and variety of elements of the brain increased. Finally, there was an increase in plasticity, that is, the brain's ability to modify itself as a result of experience to make memory and the learning of new perceptual and motor abilities possible.
I recommend you read the whole link Straggler, it is very detailed and should provide you with alot of answers.
Topics are,
*The Evolution of the Brain
*The Development of the Brain
*Learning and Memory: Rewiring the Brain
I hope this helped

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 09-03-2008 2:36 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-03-2008 5:01 PM onifre has replied
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 09-03-2008 6:07 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 43 (480463)
09-03-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
09-03-2008 5:01 PM


Tell me you didn't go to U of I!
LOL no sir I did not. University of Miami thank you very much
I just had that link saved on my laptop for a class I had on the 'Rise of Consciousness'.
I didn't want to cheat from any of my schools papers when I took the class
Edited by onifre, : correction in my statement.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 8 of 43 (480470)
09-03-2008 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
09-03-2008 6:07 PM


Re: Brains
Hi Straggler,
Any thoughts (or links) on the nature and evolution of consciousness and the relation of this to brains? How "conscious" are jellyfish? Insects? Lizards? For example. (whatever the question "how conscious" even means )
I'd like to get Catholic Sci. involved in this since he and I have had discussions in the past on consciousness.
He gave me this wiki definition of sapience,
Wisdom - Wikipedia
...which seems to help understand what gives rise to consciousness.
This quote from the definition seems to be a good summary of what consciousness is
quote:
Displaying sound judgment in a complex, dynamic environment is a hallmark of wisdom.
I would also add that that is the hallmark to consciousness.
As far as the animals are concerned, CS gave me this wiki link to the mirror test that tests animals, or rather we think it tests animals, consciousness.
Mirror test - Wikipedia
We had a pretty good 2 page discussion on this thread,
http://EvC Forum: The consciouness paradox -->EvC Forum: The consciouness paradox
Sorry I don't know how to tag a specific threads.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 14 of 43 (480659)
09-05-2008 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
09-05-2008 11:55 AM


Re: Consciousness and the brain
Hi Hoot Mon,
Maybe consciousness is a state of mind, not a part of the brain.
But wouldn't a 'state-of-mind' still require some kind of neural processing?
A 'state-of-mind' should be described more as 'Qualia, rather than consciousness.
wiki definition,
Qualia - Wikipedia
quote:
In more philosophical terms, qualia are properties of sensory experiences.
quote:
One of the simpler, broader definitions is "The 'what it is like' character of mental states. The way it feels to have mental states such as pain, seeing red, smelling a rose, etc.'"
I would argue that consciousness at its must fundamental level is just self and environmental awareness. Therefore it not only requires one to be able to perceive its environment, it also requires that one is able to make sense of what has been perceived. Thats why the brain must be a factor in consciousness since without it we couldn't make heads or tails of any sensory information.
So if the brain evolved, so did the levels of consciousness. Perhaps a primitive self/environmental awareness localized to a small area slowly increasing as more is perceived and understood.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 11:55 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 3:17 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 17 of 43 (480697)
09-05-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
09-05-2008 2:12 PM


Re: Evolving Consciousness
Hi Straggler,
I mean is it conceivable that humans (or other creatures) could evolve greater intelligence, greater sapience and greater consciousness than we currently possess?
I would not tend to agree with any other 'creature' on Earth surpassing us in those 3 catagories. However, I would say that perhaps on another planet a 'creature' can posses a much greater level of consciousness. And/or humans 1 million years from now.
What would such a creature be able to do that we are not capable of?
I would tend to side with Michio Kaku here in saying that the greater the level of consciousness,(or awareness), becomes, the further into space we(or other creatures) will go. Slowly becoming Type I, Type II, and Type III civilizations.
This is something i've noticed, perhaps you have as well, but it seems that the greater the increase in consciousness becomes, the further we try to get from this planet?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2008 2:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2008 7:11 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 18 of 43 (480703)
09-05-2008 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Fosdick
09-05-2008 3:17 PM


Re: Consciousness and the brain
Hi Hoot Mon,
Now, perhaps the parts of brains that engage symbolic language are where consciousness manifests logistically.
If by consciousness we mean awareness then I would say that language only helps in the spreading of it(awareness of self/environment) throught communities, families etc. etc.
But at the fundamental level I would think that all species are conscious, at the very least of their immediate surroundings(as with your example of a dog in the woods). The greater the level of consciousness that each species posses, the greater the awareness of their surroundings become, IMO.
Language just takes our consciousness to a much more refined level because, well, currently there are 6 billion of us thinking and communicating. Some with amazing ideas, and some, like say Einstein, or Darwin, or Keppler, take us to new, much more complex, levels of consciousness.
Edited by onifre, : spelling

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 3:17 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 20 of 43 (480721)
09-05-2008 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Agobot
09-05-2008 6:14 PM


Re: The path to consciousness
Hi Agobot,
This occurence reminded me why scientists nowadays think that our human language started off in Tanzania around 200 000 years ago in the form of ticking. Scientists think that homosapiens started ticking(and later developed other sounds) as way to warn other homo sapiens about an approaching... snake. Kenya and Tanzania are world famous for their diviersity of snakes and our ancestors had come into contct with deadly snakes all too often. That's when nature gave us the upper hand and homo sapiens developed ticking with their tounges, then more diverse ticking, then short sounds untill full language appeared
Does sound very interesting and very logical. You wouldn't happen to have a link where I can read about this would you?

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 Message 19 by Agobot, posted 09-05-2008 6:14 PM Agobot has replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 23 of 43 (480730)
09-05-2008 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
09-05-2008 7:11 PM


Re: Evolving Consciousness
Hi Straggler,
Does this require increased consciousness or increased knowledge?
For the functioning aspects of space travel, obviously knowledge is key.
Consciousness, or being conscious, as defined by the Oxford Dictionary,
quote:
Oxford Dictionary defines conscious as: 1. awake and aware of one's surroundings and identity.
With that definition you are 'conscious' of space, where as your newly arrived friend from 10,000 years ago would most certainly NOT be as aware(or conscious) as you, I, or Mr. Kaku of space.
So, IMO knowledge is a by-product of being conscious of things in your surroundings(I also assume it to be a tool for survival). Your friend 10,000 years ago looked up at a star and could only imagine wtf it was. Today, since our consciousness was raised about stars 200,000 years ago(assumed time), we know what they are made of, how long the last, how old they are etc, etc. But had we never looked up and made ourselves conscious(aware) of those stars, we would still have no idea what they are, and therefore we would have no knowledge of them.
Example: As a child you are conscious(aware) of your neighborhood, but you are completely unaware of anything else. Your neighborhood is the BIGGEST thing you're conscious of, and since you are not conscious of any other part of the world, you have no knowledge about it. As you get older your consciousness gets raised to the rest of the world and now you are aware of a much BIGGER world, therefore now that you are conscious of the larger world you can begin to gain knowledge about it.
Which is what I meant by people like Einstein or Darwin. They raised our consciousness about the world we live in. The same as someone like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. did for civil rights in the US(sorry I don't know who the Euro version of Dr.King is to give you a better reference). People such as these folks raise our consciousness about our world. Then the process of learning can begin. But if you're not conscious(aware) of, lets say, a microscopic world, how would anyone have knowledge about atoms?
Its that raise in consciousness that drives the need for the knowledge about that which you have just become conscious of.
I hope im making sense LOL.
If we could bring a newborn human baby from 10,000 years ago and raise it in the modern world I have little doubt it would be as "conscious" as you me.
A baby, yes, a full grown adult, no. Don't misunderstand me here, im not saying that the ability to become MORE conscious isn't there, its just that consciousness(awareness) increases gradually within cultures and societies. Would a person 10,000years ago have the capacity to be as conscious as us YES(assuming a normal sized brain)...but they weren't, thats why they were superstitious.
I was more thinking of humans (or other beings) that have evolved a level of consciousness that we are currently incapable of. Something beyond knowledge perhaps? What would such a creature be capable of that we are not? Would their language necesarily be sophisticated? Would their braisn nevessarily be physiologically different to ours?
You know I have no idea LOL. But man would it be fuckin cool to find out.
Edited by onifre, : none

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2008 7:11 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-06-2008 2:14 AM onifre has replied
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 09-06-2008 6:57 AM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 27 of 43 (480841)
09-06-2008 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
09-06-2008 2:14 AM


Re: Evolving Consciousness
I'd say that you are talking about intelligence, instead of consciousness, in this whole post.
Replace every "consciousness" with "intelligence" and I agree.
I wouldn't doubt that you could switch consciousness with intelligence since it's a very gray area which people can confuse, (and because both intelligence and consciousness increase almost together). I meant consciousness though because my point was that you can't become intelligent or knowledgeable about something, untill you are conscious of it's existance. Meaning that you are aware of it. Monkey's are not aware of space, nor do they lack the brain capacity to understand it. We however, have a large enough brain to understand it and are aware of its existance.
So since we can't be intelligent on a subject until we become conscious of it, its safe to assume that consciousness came before intelligence. And I would add that we became conscious of our environment long before we became conscious of our selves. So I would then conclude that it was self consciousness that gave rise to a species that became highly intelligent about himself and his environment.
And to go back to Stragglers OP here, we as humans with our level of consciousness(or awareness of ourselves and our environment), and at this level of our intelligence, have only been able to close in on the HOW of our Universe, but we are no where near, or even come close to, understanding the WHY of our Universe. So perhaps a species that has raised his consciousness(awareness) to a far greater level than ours has completely understood the HOW of our universe(ie. becoming a Type III civilization), and is now starting to close in on understanding the WHY of our univere. Perhaps far greater than that is a species who has understood both how our universe works, and why does it exist.
Im not religious but do feel some spirituality can be incorporated into this perhaps, if one wishes. But for now, until we fully understand how our universe works, thats up to the individual to decide for himself. I think that the answer(s) to why our universe exists is going to be far far far beyond any answer that any human can conceive at this point due to our current level of intelligence and understanding.
But we'll need a rise in consciousness beyond what we have now to do so IMO. We only became conscious of a microscopic world recently for our time as homo-sapiens and we are now starting to understand how it works. Maybe once we understand it we'll become conscious of something else, that will need an explanation also. Perhaps once we understand it we'll understand how our universe works completely from 'start' to 'finish' and become conscious of the fact that there is no why, or perhaps not a why like we define it. Who knows...

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-06-2008 2:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-08-2008 12:38 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 28 of 43 (480885)
09-07-2008 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Fosdick
09-05-2008 3:17 PM


Re: Consciousness and the brain
Hi Hootmon,
Perhaps the kind of consciousness you're talking about is carried through our symbolic language.
In the book 'Conversations on Consciousness' the author, who is doing a series of interviews with everyone from Neuroscentist to Philosophers to Spiritual Seekers, asks Vilayanur Ramachandran(Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at University of California), "What brings about consciousness is humans?", he seems to agree with what you are suggesting about where consciousness manifests.
Here's his response,
quote:
RAMA: There is something very unique and special about humans, not in a theological or mystical sense, but just in terms of funtions.
AUTHOR: You mean it's not because they have a soul, but it's something to do with a funtion. But what funtion? Some people would say language, some a sense of self; where would you put that special leap?
RAMA: I think those two are related, by the way. But let me first assert, and then I'll give you the evidence as we go along, that lower animals--I'm not supposed to call them lower animals, but animals in general, even higher primates, excluding humans--have only a raw background awareness. But they're lacking extra stuff which I have called meta-awareness.
Now, this could be another parasitic brain, to put it crudely, that uses the output of the 'first' brain as it's input. In other words you first have processing of information, and various automatisms of the kind done by the dorsal stream, and then some stage in evolution created a representation of the representation for other purposes. The question is, what are those purposes?
You could say, isn't it redundant; why create another representation of the representation? The answer is, it isn't redundant; your doing it to fulfil a new computational need, namely open-ended symbol manipulation in your head. This is what we call thinking: coming up with outlandish conjectures which are made by the imagination, by juggling these symbols in you head. And closely linked to that is the emergence of language: being able to communicate these ideas, intentions, and thoughts with other people; and constructing a theory of other minds. All of this happened more or less simultaneously in evolution, and it was a quantum jump in the mind of an ape.
--End.
He seems to suggest that the emergence of 'becoming aware', or conscious of one self, and the need to communitcate these experiences, brings about language and that the 2 are closely related, so that both probably manifest from the same place.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 3:17 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Fosdick, posted 09-07-2008 1:13 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 30 of 43 (480892)
09-07-2008 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Fosdick
09-07-2008 1:13 PM


Re: Consciousness and the brain
Hi HM,
Hi, onfire. A question: Do you think Helen Keller gained more consciousness after she was trained to use a symbolic language? Or was her human consciousness innate to her and fixed from birth
Consciouness is innate in all primates, to include Helen Keller. I would say that there are different levels of consciousness though for each of the different stages of our evolution from our homonid ancestors. As humans our last true leap to the next level IMO was the discovery of a micro-scopic world, which is now leading us to understand how our Universe came to be.
So language, I would say, is the tool used to convay the information of that which we became conscious of. And without it I would imagine that we would never understand anything. Which is where I would place the Great Apes, like chimps and gorillas. They are conscious of alot of things but don't understand any of it.
*Note: I use consciousness as equal to awareness in my posts, so we may be defining consciousness differently.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 40 of 43 (481179)
09-09-2008 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
09-08-2008 12:38 PM


Re: Evolving Consciousness
You're saying that because we're more intelligent, then we are more aware, and thus more conscious.
No no. Im saying since we are a conscious species, (aware of ourselves) not just aware in the sense that bees are aware, we become intelligent.
So, first consciousness emerges within the homo genus, (we can argue how later), then we become aware of our surroundings, and because of this we begin to postulate about it and thus little by little become more intelligent as a species. Slowly reaching new levels of consciousness. As early homonids(assuming they were conscious), were only conscious of their small surroundings and thus only had knowledge and some intelligence about that small world of theirs, something like space could never be explained to them because they are not conscious of it's existence and wouldn't know what you were talking about(assuming they understand english of course LOL).
You would have to go step by step, like we do with children. That is why I told Straggler,
Onifre writes,
A baby, yes, a full grown adult, no. Don't misunderstand me here, im not saying that the ability to become MORE conscious isn't there, its just that consciousness(awareness) increases gradually within cultures and societies. Would a person 10,000years ago have the capacity to be as conscious as us YES(assuming a normal sized brain)...but they weren't, thats why they were superstitious.
Catholic Scientist writes,
Our intellignece on the matter of how sound would travel from a fox to our ears does nothing to make us more aware of the fox.
I don't mean aware as in 'visible awareness', like if I turn on the lights I become aware of the coffee table im about to hit. I mean aware as in 'aware of one's self' and that one is located on a planet. That there are other species, some of which we don't even know yet. That we are located within a solar syatem, within a galaxy, within a universe. IOW, awareness of the magnitude of this whole thing. And like I mentioned, we didn't start off knowing that. You can bring someone from 100,000 years ago and assuming for the example that they speak perfect english, can bring them up to spead as long as they are open minded. But imagaine not having a narrator. Imagine having to figue it out alone, as was the case. You have to go step by step, becomeing aware of the reality that you are looking at, and taking the first steps to understanding it, that, IMO, is the emergence of consciousness.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-08-2008 12:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-10-2008 12:34 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 42 of 43 (481317)
09-10-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
09-10-2008 12:34 PM


Re: Evolving Consciousness
I thought you were saying that Anatomically Modern Humans from 10,000 years ago were less conscious (definition #1) than we are today.
No, im saying less conscious as with (definition #4).
I think we can conclude from what you wrote here...
CS writes,
quote:
I don't think that Anatomically Modern Humans from 10,000 years ago were any less conscious (definition #1) than we are today, but I do agree that they are not as conscious (definition #4).
...that we are in agreement.
So my position on a raised consciousness would be a raise in (definition #4) type of consciousness. Currently our consciousness has been raised about a micro-world, which that type of consciousness can be perfectly defined with your definition #4, "awareness of something for what it is".

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-10-2008 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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