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Author Topic:   Questions for Atheists
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 110 (481123)
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


These questions are probably not what you are expecting. I am trying to make you think a little. The Atheist would argue that a creator is useless because physics does such a great job explaining everything. Therefore if you are an atheist I must assume you know some science. Now here comes the questions that I really do not understand: What is the cause of the difference between the six types of quarks and their corresponding anti-quarks? What is the nature of Dark Energy, and how did it evolve? What would happen if a quark would knock into another quark? Would it be cut in half? If quarks can be cut in half, what would you call a half of a quark? What would you call half of that? If the whole universe could theoretically be broken down into the most elementary thing (force, energy, matter, anti-matter, wave, partical, time, space, or concept) how would this simple thing possibly do anything without interacting with another thing (same as before)? Why do laws of physics breakdown during the Big Bang? What laws did nature follow? And finally, how does gravity really work? I am not that good at science. I hope all the atheists out there can help me out.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by bluegenes, posted 09-09-2008 3:43 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 4 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2008 3:51 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 09-09-2008 4:30 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 9 by grandfather raven, posted 09-09-2008 4:45 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 09-09-2008 5:32 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 09-09-2008 6:09 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 18 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 09-09-2008 7:55 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 30 by Deftil, posted 09-09-2008 11:19 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 34 by Rrhain, posted 09-10-2008 1:37 AM Open MInd has not replied
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 110 (481128)
09-09-2008 2:51 PM


for Open Mind
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
To hurry things up you might start answering some questions that may come up. The most important of which might be:
Why do you think that anyone thinks physics answers everything? This is, of course, not what anyone who knows any science thinks.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 3 of 110 (481135)
09-09-2008 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


Fictional atheists!
Open Mind writes:
These questions are probably not what you are expecting. I am trying to make you think a little. The Atheist would argue that a creator is useless because physics does such a great job explaining everything.
I've never heard an atheist argue that physics does a great job of explaining everything, and I've never heard a physicist argue that physics does such a great job of explaining everything. It does a great job of explaining a lot, but certainly not everything!
Atheists are just people who don't believe in any gods. They existed long before modern physics, in fact, they've probably existed for as long as humanity has existed. Definitely, in fact, because new born babies are atheists.
I suggest that, rather than spending energy trying to make other people think, you expend that energy on thinking a bit more clearly yourself. Find out what atheists really are as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 1:50 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 3:52 PM bluegenes has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 4 of 110 (481136)
09-09-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


Most of your questions sound pretty bizaare and I can't see what sense they would make. But if that's what you want to know, then I guess it must make some kind of sense to you.
But why are you restricting the questions to only atheists? Given that most of the people who know physics are theists, shouldn't you allow they to respond as well? Wouldn't that vastly improve your chances of getting answers for your questions?
Unless you have some ulterior motive behind these questions.
-----------------
Laddie, I've been an atheist for about 45 years now and ever since the "Jesus Freak" movement reared its ugly head circa 1970 I've seen just about all the dirty proselytizing tricks that they would try to pull. Including the one that you appear to be trying to pull right now. Putting your mark (term referring to the intended victim of a swindle) in a vulnerable position so that you can shake his self-confidence enough to open him to conversion. The questions are meant to be unanswerable so that he'd have to admit ignorance, thus causing his position to appear weaker.
Of course, if you're really and honestly just interesting in finding answers to your questions, then just say so. And explain why you deliberately sabotaged your chances of finding those answers by explicitly excluding the vast majority of the people who could give you those answers.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)
It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
Robert Colbert on NPR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 1:50 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 3:59 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 110 (481137)
09-09-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by bluegenes
09-09-2008 3:43 PM


Re: Fictional atheists!
I heard what I am saying straight out of the mouth of Richard Dawkins, the world's most popular atheist. I found a debate on youtube in which he made a comment along the lines of:"What is the point of a god already? If we can explain everything without a god, why do we need to bring such a thing into our mind?" This is not an exact quote, but it is what he was saying.
On a side note, what do you believe? If you are an atheist please explain your reason. Were you ever part of an organized religion? Did this religion have an impact on your views? If you are an athiest, please tell me when you became an atheist? I need some information if I am to make my point. Thank you for your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by bluegenes, posted 09-09-2008 3:43 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by bluegenes, posted 09-09-2008 4:16 PM Open MInd has not replied
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 6 of 110 (481138)
09-09-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dwise1
09-09-2008 3:51 PM


My Motive
You are right about my motive. I did not ask theists these question because a theist would admit that the world cannot be understood completely by human beings. Is this not why the first humans believed in a god. Now I have a question for you personally, have you ever considered a different religion than Christianity? How long did you ponder before chosing atheism? Was there an underlying reason for you chosing to abandon the Christian faith (assuming you were once a Christian)? I just want to let you know that I am not and have never been a Christian. Thank you for responding to my post.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2008 3:51 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 09-09-2008 4:47 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 12 by bluescat48, posted 09-09-2008 4:56 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2008 8:25 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 09-09-2008 9:10 PM Open MInd has not replied
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 110 (481142)
09-09-2008 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 3:52 PM


Re: Fictional atheists!
Open MInd writes:
I heard what I am saying straight out of the mouth of Richard Dawkins, the world's most popular atheist. I found a debate on youtube in which he made a comment along the lines of:"What is the point of a god already? If we can explain everything without a god, why do we need to bring such a thing into our mind?" This is not an exact quote, but it is what he was saying.
Child, if you want to quote someone, make it exact, and give the complete context.
There's one thing you need to understand about atheists. They are people who lack belief in any gods. They are not defined by anything else. They share no unified politics or philosophy or reason as to why they don't believe in gods. Are you capable of understanding this simple point?
On a side note, what do you believe? If you are an atheist please explain your reason.
I'm an atheist. People don't really need a reason not to believe in supernatural propositions for which there is no evidence. Lack of belief in gods is like lack of belief in fairies or elves. Think of all the gods of all the religions that you don't believe in, and ask yourself, do you need reasons not to believe in them?
Were you ever part of an organized religion? Did this religion have an impact on your views? If you are an athiest, please tell me when you became an atheist? I need some information if I am to make my point. Thank you for your response.
I was born an atheist.
What point? You seem to be trying to make some point about atheists without knowing what they are, and you seem to think that Richard Dawkins is the only scientist in the world who believes that physics explains everything (he would laugh at the idea, like any other scientist), so why should I start giving personal details to someone with the apparent wisdom of a 10 year old?

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 110 (481147)
09-09-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


The Atheist would argue that a creator is useless because physics does such a great job explaining everything.
Well, I do admit that some people (including theists, by the way) do seem to think that science can answer everything -- or at least potentially answer everything given enough time.
Me, I don't know whether the scientific method is capable of answering all questions even if given as much time as needed. Certainly there are still unanswered questions, and some of the answers scientists think that they have will probably be shown to be incorrect.
The scientific method is not a fool-proof method of providing answers. It is, as far as I know, the best method yet devised by humans to come up with answers about the physical world. Part of that is because it has a method of testing for wrong answers -- by continuous experiment and observation. That is probably the reason that it has been so effective.
Now I can't speak for all atheists, but science providing answers is not the reason I believe that there are no gods.

Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev

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Replies to this message:
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grandfather raven
Junior Member (Idle past 5445 days)
Posts: 27
From: Alaska, USA
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 9 of 110 (481151)
09-09-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


"The Atheist would argue that a creator is useless because physics does such a great job explaining everything."
i'm not an atheist, yet i'd argue that too. could your premise fail any more thoroughly?

This message is a reply to:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 110 (481152)
09-09-2008 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
09-09-2008 4:30 PM


Tenses, guys!
Chiroptera writes:
OpenMind writes:
The Atheist would argue that a creator is useless because physics does such a great job explaining everything.
Well, I do admit that some people (including theists, by the way) do seem to think that science can answer everything -- or at least potentially answer everything given enough time.
I think that the question of whether physics does explain everything and whether it potentially could are very different ones. OpenMind uses "does" rather than "can" as his chosen verb.
For me, the answer to "does" is an obvious no, and the answer to "can" is that we cannot know the answer.
Like you, science is not the reason why I don't believe in gods, and I see nothing in our current scientific knowledge that is incompatable with the possibility of the existence of gods. Or fairies, for that matter.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 110 (481153)
09-09-2008 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 3:59 PM


Your Mistake
I did not ask theists these question because a theist would admit that the world cannot be understood completely by human beings.
From a theological perspective you are heading in a very, very bad direction.
It is called "god of the gaps". You find things that we don't currently know (and may or may not every know) and suggest that they are some support for your beliefs. Just because physics doesn't know everything doesn't mean you know a single darned thing about the universe.
In fact, using god as an explanation of unknown things has been an historically really bad idea. Over and over the gaps in knowledge close. No, the sun god does not charge across the sky in a chariot; no, god does not throw lightening bolts (though some current so-called Christians actually think he throws Hurricanes ) and no, demons do not cause disease.
In addition, no god flooded the earth in recent times etc.
The reasons for people's beliefs are NOT on topic in this thread. Nor does it belong in the science threads. Stay on topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 3:59 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 110 (481155)
09-09-2008 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 3:59 PM


Re: My Motive
How long did you ponder before chosing atheism?
about 45 years from age 5 when the Christian dogma was indoctrinated to me through age 50 when I was finally able to divorce myself from the mythology.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 8:48 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 110 (481162)
09-09-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


Scientiic Tendancies
Hi Open Mind
That is a lot of questions and I won't try to answer them all at this stage.
I don't think it is true to say that scientific training and atheism necessarily go hand in hand in quite the way you suggest. There are theistic scientists and atheists with little scientific knowledge. However I agree that there does seem to be a broad correlation between the two.
Rather than your implication that the scientifically trained think they have all the answers I think the opposite is true. Scientific training both breeds and attracts those with the following qualities that are relevant to this debate:
1) A desire to get beyond the superficial and ideological "knowledge" in order to find the "truth"
2) An evidenced based approach to investigation.
3) A healthy scepticism with respect to knowledge.
4) An ability to acknowledge that the answer "we don't know" is better than an unwarrented claim of certainty.
5) An ability to acknowledge that evidence is always imperfect and that interpretations are always subjective (thus leading to the methods of science as the best methods of achieving objectivity and reliability of knowledge)
6) An appreciation that absolute certainty is not possible. Science, and indeed any evidence based method of investigation, is necessarily tentative to some degree.
In short science is about recognsing the limits of our ability to "know" and imposing the methods and criteria required to maximise the reliability of of our conclusions with this in mind.
As a self avowed atheist and physics graduate I guess I am your target audience
The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that the evidence for theistic claims is just utterly absent and the methods of investigation with regard to these claims just does not justify the outrageaousness of these conclusions.
I don't think faith is noble. In fact quite the opposite.......

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 14 of 110 (481164)
09-09-2008 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:50 PM


what would you call a half of a quark?
A pink? And a fourth would be a cuk?
And, like the bluesy cat, I considered all that good theistic stuff I was raised in from early childhood until my mid-40's. Then I finally dumped it.

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 15 of 110 (481167)
09-09-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coragyps
09-09-2008 6:09 PM


I considered all that good theistic stuff I was raised in from early childhood until my mid-40's. Then I finally dumped it.
Really? That late? That's very interesting as I'm just emerging from the process myself, which began essentially with my arrival at EvC a few years back. I keep meaning to get a thread started on it. I'd be very interested in comparing experiences, if you would be willing?

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