Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 413 (481189)
09-09-2008 10:25 PM


This thread is proposed for my opponents in this debate who claim that the two ends of an all dimensional straight bar can be joined via space curvature who care to try to make some sense out of their arguments.
The last we heard from them was when they tried to obfuscate my model of an absolute straight bar by confusing the term/word straight with level.
What they are doing is clear. They are using a model such as the curvature of the earth and a two dimensional straight and level line relative to the curvature of the earth for a three dimensional universe to which my all dimensional bar model applies.
I'm not of the mind to let them off the hook on this. I would appreciate if this thread could be proposed in a thread which is not restricted to conventional science criteria; perhaps Coffee House.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 09-09-2008 10:41 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 6 by lyx2no, posted 09-09-2008 11:42 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 12 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2008 3:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 09-10-2008 2:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 234 by Codegate, posted 09-19-2008 4:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 413 (481192)
09-09-2008 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
09-09-2008 10:25 PM


But it is a science topic Buz
I'm certainly not going to promote this. I know exactly how it will go. A lot of time has been wasted trying to help you understand things Buz. This one is waaaay beyond you.
You will NOT ever "get it" Buz. Just give up on this and consider yourself ever so much smarter than everyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 10:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 10:54 PM AdminNosy has replied
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2008 7:48 PM AdminNosy has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 413 (481197)
09-09-2008 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
09-09-2008 10:41 PM


Re: But it is a science topic Buz
How about the Freeforall then? Why can't I debate my POV? Why am I required to aques to the conventional POV in order to participate? I have shown where they obfuscated my model? Why does your POV get a pass on that?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 09-09-2008 10:41 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 09-09-2008 11:04 PM Buzsaw has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 413 (481203)
09-09-2008 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
09-09-2008 10:54 PM


Free for All
Certainly! The Free for All is just where this belongs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 10:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 413 (481204)
09-09-2008 11:04 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 6 of 413 (481210)
09-09-2008 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
09-09-2008 10:25 PM


Once More Unto the Breach
The last we heard from them was when they tried to obfuscate my model of an absolute straight bar by confusing the term/word straight with level.
What they are doing is clear.
No one confused the analogy but you, Buzsaw. No one who ventured into the fray, at any rate. What we (Me and the mouse in my pocket.) are doing is simplifying the situation to remove complications toward understanding. When an analogy fails beyond its intended parameters we move to a new analogy. I very much agree that the "Straight Bar" concept in question is more difficult to visualize then its "Level Bar" analogy, and don't confound the two.
Let me try to get you to answer this question again. Last time I asked you thought it a stupid exercise. How do you derive your standard of "absolutely straight"? How do you determine whether your bar is straight? What do you measure it against? What tool(s) do you use?
If you still think it's not worth answering, I'm stumped as to how we'd get any further then you being the smartest man in the whole wide world.
Thanks for having this put into free for all, because after I run out of sensible ideas I can just start rankin' on ya'.
Edited by lyx2no, : "Ranking" didn't have the homey quality I was shootin'
for.
Edited by lyx2no, : Grammar.

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 10:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:07 AM lyx2no has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 413 (481211)
09-09-2008 11:47 PM


This message is my last message relative to calling my opponents on their unfair tactic of obfuscating my model by applying the word/term level in their attempt to destroy my valid argument. LOL on that.
It appears from the responses to my heads up on their spin tactic that my opponents in this debate ran out of gas. All we got from them was the usual demeaning personal insults and attempts to characterize me as an unlearned old fool.
Well, my friends, here's your chance to get in the ring with me and show your stuff. You might begin by citing something - any statement that this old fool posted that you can substantially falsify relative to this bar model space issue. Notice I didn't say non-mainline POV scientific. I said, that you can substantially falsify.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2008 7:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 413 (481215)
09-10-2008 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by lyx2no
09-09-2008 11:42 PM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
lyx2no writes:
Let me try to get you to answer this question again. Last time I asked you thought it a stupid exercise. How do you derive your standard of "absolutely straight"? How do you determine whether your bar is straight? What do you measure it against? What tool(s) do you use?
Thanks for coming in, lyx2. Weren't you paying attention to what I posted in the exchange over there? How could I make it more clear as to what I meant about absolute straight. What I meant that it was straight and unbended in all dimensions Your earth/level analogy line is not an absolute straight bar. Your earth surface model is not analogous to the 3D universe.
My bar must bend to make it's way around the 2d circumference of the earth and connect the two ends.
The ultimate question in this debate is what property of space is capable of connecting the two ends of the absolute straight unbended bar if extended into space. If you say 'curvature,' that doesn't cut it. We know by observation that no matter how long any circle is, be it the planet or be it the universe, that that bar MUST bend for it's two ends to connect. That's reality.
(Note: Likely I was composing my last message at the same time you was doing yours.)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by lyx2no, posted 09-09-2008 11:42 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by lyx2no, posted 09-10-2008 12:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2008 1:28 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 09-10-2008 3:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 9 of 413 (481218)
09-10-2008 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 12:07 AM


Rankin' Time Already?
Let me try to get you to answer this question again. The next to last time I asked you thought it a stupid exercise. How do you derive your standard of "absolutely straight"? How do you determine whether your bar is straight? What do you measure it against? What tool(s) do you use?

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 413 (481223)
09-10-2008 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 12:07 AM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
Given the dishonesty and closed-mindedness on display in the OP I very much doubt that it is worth posting this as anything other than a demonstration of your refusal to deal with the real issues.
Our space is curved in a higher dimension which we do not have access to. (Forget sci-fi ideas about other dimensions, this is a dimension as length is a dimension).
If the universe is closed, the curvature is sufficient that a straight line in our three dimensional space will meet up with itself.
For your iron bar to avoid meeting up with itself, either it must deviate from the straight or it must leave our three-dimensional space.
If you choose the latter option please explain how the bar can do it when we can find no way of moving anything outside of our three spatial dimensions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 10:01 AM PaulK has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 11 of 413 (481232)
09-10-2008 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 12:07 AM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
My bar must bend to make it's way around the 2d circumference of the earth and connect the two ends.
That isn't how spherical geometry works, though. A great circle doesn't bend at all. It is perfectly straight.
And yet, a line drawn on a great circle is just that: A circle. In fact, that's the definition of "straight" in spherical geometry: It lies upon a great circle. In spherical geometry, all parallel lines meet. Only non-parallel lines don't.
In our current universe, a "straight" line is defined by the path a photon takes in vacuum. Thus, even though a light beam "bends" around a star, it is actually travelling in a "straight" line.
Thus, a sufficient gravitational mass can warp space such that it can have light move in a circle.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 12 of 413 (481233)
09-10-2008 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
09-09-2008 10:25 PM


Buz, don't worry, you're not alone. The vast majority would believe exactly as you. That is why the vast majority are not scientists and mathematicians. You just happen to be on a board with a large range of very intelligent, very well informed individuals, who are not so intellectually restricted as the majority. You are very fortunate. However, if something as "trivial" as this causes you an unpassable stumbling block, then you have absolutely no hope at all at the really interesting weirdness in this Universe. There's no point discussing this with you as you are adamant that you are correct - so what would be the point? It's no loss for me or anyone else for you to remain in ignorance and simply appear as a blinkered fool.
Anyone else fell like discusing the r=3m null orbit around the Schwarzschild black hole? Perfect for seeing the back of your own head

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 10:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2008 10:50 AM cavediver has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 413 (481257)
09-10-2008 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
09-09-2008 11:47 PM


Laser Lights and Steel Bars
Hi Buz
SCENARIO
Imagine your steel bar with a small laser attached to the top of it (kind of like a laser sight on top of a rifle). The laser beam is aimed along your perfectly straight steel bar so that the beam of light and the steel bar are perfectly parallel.
CONVENTIONAL SCIENCE
Now we know that light "bends" due to spacetime curvature because we have observed it. We can demonstrate, measure, predict, repeat etc. etc. etc. this effect. It is "proven" (to the point anything is proven in science).
Now in actual fact light does not "bend" in curved spacetime. Rather it travels in a straight line but appears to bend because spacetime itself is curved. This is the view of conventional science. Thus the steel bar and the light beam would both be straight. Would never deviate from their parallel paths. And would both eventually meet at the ends in a 4D spherical spacetime universe. According to conventional science.
BUZSAW MODEL
In the case of your perfectly straight steel bar and my additional associated laser beam of light - At what point, according to your definition of straight, do the perfectly straight steel bar and the perfectly straight laser beam of light deviate from each other such that one is straight and the other is not? What does your model predict should happen in the steel bar laser combo situation?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2008 11:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 413 (481280)
09-10-2008 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
09-10-2008 1:28 AM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
PaulK writes:
Our space is curved in a higher dimension which we do not have access to. (Forget sci-fi ideas about other dimensions, this is a dimension as length is a dimension).
"Higher dimension...do not have access to." That's interesting. That argument doesn't cut it in the science fora for theistic creationists who cite evidence of higher dimensional intelligence in the universe capable of ID.
PaulK writes:
If the universe is closed, the curvature is sufficient that a straight line in our three dimensional space will meet up with itself.
GONG! My static space, unbounded space and infinite space universe is also closed, sufficient for an absolute unbended straight line to extend infinitely, remaining unjoined to itself.
What observable model can you cite which will join the two ends of the absolute straight bar?
PaulK writes:
For your iron bar to avoid meeting up with itself, either it must deviate from the straight or it must leave our three-dimensional space.
Unless it is the matter, energy and forces existing in the unbounded space/area of the universe, all having observational properties, which render things observable within the unbounded universe spherical via the conglomerate forces such as gravity or electromagnetism existing in the universe's unbounded space/area and not space itself.
Ongoing Unanswered question: What observable property of space effects curvature?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2008 1:28 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by DrJones*, posted 09-10-2008 10:37 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2008 2:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 15 of 413 (481287)
09-10-2008 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 10:01 AM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
Higher dimension...do not have access to." That's interesting. That argument doesn't cut it in the science fora for theistic creationists who cite evidence of higher dimensional intelligence in the universe capable of ID.
Did you not read what PaulK wrote? He specifically said that we're not talking about a dimension as a place. I'll repeat his quote maybe you could actually read it, sound out the words if you have to.
Our space is curved in a higher dimension which we do not have access to. (Forget sci-fi ideas about other dimensions, this is a dimension as length is a dimension).

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 10:01 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:53 AM DrJones* has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024