The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Hey Cavediver, just to let you know, I never studied physics or anything (I'm an economics type) I must say the analogies brought up in this thread make perfect sense to me, and I can't really figure out why Buzsaw isn't seeing them.Further this "the r=3m null orbit around the Schwarzschild black hole" you mention, care to explain a bit about that? It looks interesting, though I must say I'm baffled about this at the moment.

1. Perhaps then you should reread my response relative to neither being accessible but only one being admissible in the science fora.2. Intelligence is no more si-fi than dimension. Neither have the property of visibility. Both can be measured.3. I did not alledge that dimension is a place. Perhaps you need to brush up on you own reading and comprehension skills before going at another's.

Hi Huntard. Welcome to EvC. We have something in common in that we both must apply some common sense and logic to what is alleged.Come, let us reason together. Suppose, Huntard, that you came to America and we stood at the foot of the straight and tall Washington Monument at Washington DC. Do you think that if there were enough matter and energy to extend that rigid straight and tall monument up into the cosmos that the tip of it would go full circle around the alleged finite universe to form a circle to have the pointed tip top of it protrude up through planet earth and crash into the base of itself WITHOUT BENDING?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

You don't know straight means in regards to being un-bent.What you think it means is incorrect.That's the crux of your misunderstanding.

Since its been proven the universe is flat what your seeing as curved is simply space dilation. Is the distances between galaxies simply space dilation like the earth moving forward in time faster causing the light to have more time to travel between galaxies. Is this the expansion(time dilation)? Even so looking at your curved light the universe has proven to be a flat universe !!!!!!!Like if the universe was created 6,000-13,000 years ago why would the entire universe not look much older given that the expansion "if" caused by the stars, jumping forward in time yet the light of a photon goes only the speed of light has more and more time because space time has increased between the galaxies because the earth, stars have jumped forward more in spacetime?Space dilation is it not just the earth, blackholes, stars, its a property of the fabric of spacetime jumping forward in time and when you look at the expansion of the heavens its increases does not come together like a circle.Instead what has been proven is the circle model is bogus as it has been proven the universe is a flat universe.P.S. Sounds like a machinists use of tolerances + or - would be a better use of what constitutes a straight line.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Universe 'proven flat'The Boomerang balloon inflating just before launchA high-flying balloon that soared over Antarctica has answered one of cosmology's greatest questions by revealing that the fabric of the Universe is "flat".http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/727073.stmEdited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Have you seen Message 13?What would your model of the universe expect if a laser beam were to be shone perfectly parallel to the steel bar in question?Would the light beam and the bar deviate from their parallel paths at all?

I was thinking along these lines last night after going to bed. Perhaps what we regard as the universe is a gigantic galaxy like disc of billions of galaxies, existing in space, perhaps even as just one of billions of these in the cosmos far beyond our comprehension or observation. I say perhaps.This would make the universe immensly greater than one could imagine.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Turtles all the way down is it?

---

KindlyWhen I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

Hi Buz,Are you familiar with curves in a geometric sense?From wiki,
Curve - Wikipedia

quote:

---

Wiki writes,
In everyday use of the term "curve", a straight line is not curved, but in mathematical parlance curves include straight lines and line segments.

---

Also,

quote:

---

Of course if one says curved in ordinary language, it means bent (not straight), so refers to a locus. This leads to the general idea of curvature.

---

You are using the everyday definition of the term straight. In geometry, which is how spacetime is described, a straight line follows the natural curvature of space.The following links may give you a start to understanding the geometry of spacetime and the laws that apply to it:*Euclidean geometry: Euclidean geometry - Wikipedia
*Non-euclidean geometry: Non-Euclidean geometry - Wikipedia
*Hyperbolic geometry: Hyperbolic geometry - Wikipedia
*Klien model: Beltrami—Klein model - Wikipedia
*General relativity: General relativity - WikipediaI hope this helps in your understanding of curved spacetime, and how all lines in space must follow the curvature, to include your bar.So your question of 'what property in space makes the bar curved?' is non-sensical in the sense that SPACE itself is the property that is curved. Anything that travels within it MUST follow that physical law.

---

"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

First of all thanks for the welcomeNow to the matter at hand: Well, the way I understand in is that the 3d property of space comes back upon itself, meaning that if I were to travel in a straight line fast enough and far enough, I would at one point come back to where I started from. So I conclude the same would be true for the monument, if the tip of it would travel fast enough and far enough through space it would indeed at some point come and crash into the exact opposite position on the earth, now I don't know how all this works, I don't understand the math, but that is what I understands happens. You seem to be sure it bends, I don't see a need for it, for it cannot do anything but follow the straight line through space, which ends up meeting itself. Perhaps this analogy helps:Imagine a glass bowl everything within this glass bowl cannot leave it, they also do not perceive the "glass" they can only move around on the inside surface of the bowl. Now, if one of them were to make an infintely long bar, along this surface, which they cannot leave, nor can they imaginge such things, then it would follow the glass all around and eventually meet up again, to the observers inside the bowl, it is not bent, it continues on straight as ever, but we observers outside the bowl, indeed see it form a full circle. Now we are the beings inside this bowl, for us, the bar is straight, for an "outside" observer the bar is in a circle. So in our bowl/universe the bar is straight, for anyone outside the universe, the bar is a circle.I expect to be told soon my analogy sucks by Cavediver or someone else who knows far more about this then I do.

I see that the initial comment in my first message here has been proven correct.The rest of my post was a simple explanation of the situation you object to. Bear that in mind.

quote:

---

"Higher dimension...do not have access to." That's interesting. That argument doesn't cut it in the science fora for theistic creationists who cite evidence of higher dimensional intelligence in the universe capable of ID.

---

It is not an argument. It is a description of the mathematics of General Relativity. If you are trying to suggest that your arguments should be accepted because you make gratutitious references to "higher dimensional intelligence" (which apparently has nothing to do with higher dimensions in the sense we are discussing here) then you are simply wrong. If you are suggesting that your arguments were rejected solely or primarily for that reason you are again completely wrong (and you should know that it is wrong).Your point then is both irrelevant and false.

quote:

---

GONG! My static space, unbounded space and infinite space universe is also closed, sufficient for an absolute unbended straight line to extend infinitely, remaining unjoined to itself.

---

In context, "closed" means that the universe curls up on itself, such that if a straight lineis extended far enough it's ends will meet. Which is the case under discussion.
And since your universe is not closed in that sense your point is irrelevant and false,

quote:

---

What observable model can you cite which will join the two ends of the absolute straight bar?

---

In the context we are speaking models (theory) are not observables (data). Thus I only need point out that in the model we are considering a straight line in our space will "join up". So how can an object that is "absolutely straight" in our space not do so ?And if you assert that the bar can somehow leave our space it is up to you to show that such is possible.

quote:

---

Unless it is the matter, energy and forces existing in the unbounded space/area of the universe, all having observational properties, which render things observable within the unbounded universe spherical via the conglomerate forces such as gravity or electromagnetism existing in the universe's unbounded space/area and not space itself.

---

This appears to be incoherent babble. If you are asserting that there is some force which enables the iron bar to leave our space please provide a rational argument that supports that claim.

quote:

---

Ongoing Unanswered question: What observable property of space effects curvature?

---

The question is mistaken. The curvature is effected by mass, not space itself.

It's because Buz is arrogant enough to think that the Universe should be perfectly comprehendable to his own common sense If the Universe was really as dull as the limits imposed by Buz's vacuous imagination, I think I'd not bother waking up in the morning...Ok, interesting stuff... the gravitational field of a black hole is famously sufficient to prevent light escaping from a certain radius out from the centre of the black hole. We call the surface given by this radius, the event horizon, and for a simple, non-rotating, non-charged black hole, the radius is given by the following formula r = 2MG/c^2, where M is the mass of the black hole, c is the speed of light, and G is Newton's Gravitation constant (big G as we say).The values of G and c merely tell us that we are using the wrong units, so we redefine G and c to equal 1. In these "geometric" units, our equation simply becomes r=2M. Outside r=2M, light can escape the vicinity of the black hole. Inside r=2M, light is trapped and cannot escape the singularity. Light at r=2M is permanently trapped. This has the interesting consequence that the event horizon is actually travelling at the speed of light Now although light can escape the vicinity of the black hole, that does not mean it is unaffected by the black hole's presence. If a photon is moving away from the black hole, but not straight out (not perpendicular to the event horizon), then the gravitational field will cause the photon to spiral outwards around the black hole. Is it possible to send a photon around teh black hole, so that it will actually be in orbit, and will return to its starting point? Yes. 50% further out from the event horizon, we reach r=3M. A photon emitted tangentially will race around the black hole and arrive back at its starting point. f nothing is blocking its wy, it will endlessly orbit the black hole.Now the path that light takes through space dictates what is straight. So this light orbit is actually a straight line through space! Build a ring space-station around the black hole at r=3M, with a continuous corridor all the way round. Look down the corridor, and what do you see? An infinitely long corridor stretching into the distance PERFECTLY STRAIGHT !!!! And someway down the corridor is another guy lookign away from you. And equidistant beyound him, is another guy, and then another guy and another guy. And they all look identical and rather familiar!!Finally, what happens if we build the space-station at r<3M??? We look down the corridor, and what do we see?

Nothing. Because even though we are outside the event horizon, the gravity is still strong enough to crush you to a messy puddle on the floor. just kidding. What, curved space station with a person who gets continually closer to you depending on your choosen numerical value? Edited by rueh, : No reason given.

Wow great explanation there Cavediver. Makes perfect sense to me, also, could this help Buz understand that straigght in space is a relative understandig? I mean, for the guy present in the spacestation, the corridor is perfectly strqaight and infinte, yet for someone further away from the black hole, it is in fact encricling the black hole. Relative to his bar, we would be the guy inside the station and someone not in our spacetime would see it as encircling the universe.Just one thing: This is hard for me to picture, if at r=3m we see into infinity, and ourselves recurring infinitely, does that mean we would see more into infinity as we get closer to the black hole? Don't make sense to me....more infinity...But chances are I am wrong

Only for a small black hole. Pick a decent supermassive BH to be found at the centre of your lcoal galaxy, and you wouldn't feel a thing. And crossing the event horizon would be a picnic...