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Author Topic:   A Designer Consistent with the Physical Evidence
Rodibidably
Junior Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-10-2008


Message 14 of 327 (481330)
09-10-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blue Jay
09-01-2008 10:17 AM


I'd say you could have the designed maxed out at any two options, but then the thirst option must be significantly lower.
Or to put it another way, if all 2 are on a 5 point scale, then I'd say the max total god could have would be 12 (two maxed out and 1 just below max, or else all three a bit below maxed, etc).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blue Jay, posted 09-01-2008 10:17 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 3:48 PM Rodibidably has replied

Rodibidably
Junior Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-10-2008


Message 16 of 327 (481374)
09-10-2008 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Blue Jay
09-10-2008 3:48 PM


The three examples that first springs to mind are slavery, pedophilia, and the holocaust.
If "god" is all powerful and all good, and knows everything before hand, then "god" would not allow such things to happen.
However if you drop any one of those three, it's concievable that these things could happen inspite of a "god".
I know that many people say these things are part of "god's" bigger plan, and meant to teach us a lesson that we just don't understand, but frankly I find that to be disingenuous.
If people want to claim that things such as stem cell research are wrong in god's view, or that gay marrage should be outlawed, or that people should not read Harry Potter because these things offend "god", then we should be able to understand "god" on the big things as well (like slavery, which IMO is just about the worst thing one human, or group of humans, can do to another human, or group of humans).
IMO either "god" knew these things would happen, and as a "good" person wanted to stop them but was powerless
or "god" knew, and how the power, but did not give a shit
or "god" had the power, and wanted to, but did not know in advance (either that it would happen, or how to stop it)
or some variation of these three to different degrees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 3:48 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 5:13 PM Rodibidably has replied

Rodibidably
Junior Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-10-2008


Message 18 of 327 (481379)
09-10-2008 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Blue Jay
09-10-2008 5:13 PM


Well for many reasons, primarily lack of evidence, I don't accept that "god" exists. But I replied with that assumption that a god does exists for the sake of this post, I jsut want ot make that clear before this discussion goes too far, and you assume something incorrect.
I suppose that "god" could be "good" but not all good, and willingly (by which I mean "god" knows how to stop something and has the power to do so) allow some bad things to happen as a lesson.
For instance, allowing one child to be raped might teach all parents to protect their children better.
Allowing one person (or group of people) to be enslaved for a short time, might help show humanity the errors of our ways and acceptance of others who are different.
HOWEVER, allowing children to be raped on a regular basis by sich individuals does not "continue" to teach us a lesson, it does nothing but add pain and misery to the lives of those involved (the child, and those who care for the child).
Allowing millions of people to be enslaved for centuries (or more recently killed because they were the "wrong" color or sexuality, etc) does not help bring us together, it shows us the inhumanity of mankind.
So I guess my answer to your question would be that if "god" has the knowledge and power to stop such things from happening, and refuses to do so, then "god" can NOT be "all-good" or even "generally good".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 5:13 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 8:05 PM Rodibidably has replied

Rodibidably
Junior Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-10-2008


Message 19 of 327 (481380)
09-10-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Blue Jay
09-10-2008 5:13 PM


As to if the good things that "god" has done outweight the bad things "god" has done, I'd say no.
If Hitler was the nicest guy in the world (helped little old ladies across the street, fed and clothed the homeless, adopted orphans, etc), except for that whole little holocaust thing, would we think any better of him, or would we still concider him one of the most vile people in all of history?

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 Message 17 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 5:13 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Rodibidably
Junior Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-10-2008


Message 21 of 327 (481423)
09-10-2008 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Blue Jay
09-10-2008 8:05 PM


Let's try it like this:
IMO, to allow pedophila, slavery, holocaust, etc, the best possible conclusion one can come to for "god" would be one of the following:
Power | Knowledge | "goodness"
5 | 5 | 2 (all powerful and omniscient, but a dick)
5 | 2 | 5 (all powerful and really nice, but a dumbass)
2 | 5 | 5 (onmiicient and really nice, but impotent to do anything on a big scale, such as giving hitler a heart attack in lets say the mid 1930's)
4 | 4 | 3
4 | 3 | 4
4 | 4 | 3
There are tow other cases that are possible:
1) You could also make the case for "god" to be less than one of these sceanrios (i.e. impotent, stupid, and a dick), but I would say that IF the typical understanding of "god" exists, that
2) God is really powerful, really smart, really good, but is ignoring this planet (i.e. set all the laws of the universe in motion, started up the big bang, and then left it alone for 14 billion years and counting), or at least NEVER interfearing (i.e. we're some type opf cosmic experiment, and "god" wants to see what happens).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Blue Jay, posted 09-10-2008 8:05 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-22-2009 11:09 AM Rodibidably has not replied
 Message 23 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-22-2009 11:13 AM Rodibidably has not replied

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