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Author Topic:   The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 31 of 413 (481365)
09-10-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Huntard
09-10-2008 3:08 PM


I mean, for the guy present in the spacestation, the corridor is perfectly strqaight and infinte, yet for someone further away from the black hole, it is in fact encricling the black hole. Relative to his bar, we would be the guy inside the station and someone not in our spacetime would see it as encircling the universe.
Nice. Clearly, some people are designed to get this sort of thing, and others are not
does that mean we would see more into infinity as we get closer to the black hole?
Nope
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2008 3:08 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 32 of 413 (481368)
09-10-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
09-10-2008 3:37 PM


And crossing the event horizon would be a picnic...
yeah if you like spagehti at your picnics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2008 3:37 PM cavediver has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4717 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 33 of 413 (481369)
09-10-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 12:08 PM


I'll be Sitting Over There
Let me try to get you to answer this question again. Once when I asked you thought it a stupid exercise. How do you derive your standard of "absolutely straight"? How do you determine whether your bar is straight? What do you measure it against? What tool(s) do you use?
AbE: One would see a little fish eye sky with a smaller and smaller diameter with an increasing blue shift as one got nearer the event horizon. (Assuming I'm still in my space station which is not falling in along with the light.)
Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.
Edited by lyx2no, : Answer cavediver's wee quiz.
Edited by lyx2no, : Clarification.

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:16 PM lyx2no has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 34 of 413 (481378)
09-10-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by cavediver
09-10-2008 3:38 PM


What we'd see
We'd only see short distance and then only things from "higher" up. Wouldn't the light be below escape velocity in closer and therefore be pulled down before it got to us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2008 3:38 PM cavediver has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 35 of 413 (481389)
09-10-2008 5:45 PM


akjv psalm 103:12
If one compares ones sins to this bar you find the bible says as far as the east is from the west. So you have the heavens basically unfolding as the earth rotates around the sun. You have the north star and the southern cross but as far as the east is from the west sounds infinite. That the two will never meet which interestingly agreeing with science that its a flat universe. Time dilation of black holes appears to be a straight line, not a curved line when you look at the entire universe is it not a flat universe!!!!!!!!
P.S. Think all the confusion is when pseudo scientists come on board and tell us time is curved when the entire universe is flat !!!!!!!!
psalm 103:11-12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To astronomers, flat means that the usual rules of geometry are observed - light not being bent by gravity travels in straight lines, not curves. But since Albert Einstein proposed that the Universe may be "curved", the debate has been open.
It will mean rewriting the text books on the history of the Universe
Professor Peter Ade
Scientific opinion has moved towards a flat Universe and the latest data confirm this with greater certainty than ever before.
However, the Universe's expansion has been so great that space has now been stretched to the point that it is essentially flat.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/727073.stm

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 413 (481438)
09-10-2008 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by PaulK
09-10-2008 2:16 PM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
PaulK writes:
In context, "closed" means that the universe curls up on itself, such that if a straight lineis extended far enough it's ends will meet. Which is the case under discussion.
And since your universe is not closed in that sense your point is irrelevant and false,
In the context we are speaking models (theory) are not observables (data). Thus I only need point out that in the model we are considering a straight line in our space will "join up". So how can an object that is "absolutely straight" in our space not do so ?
And if you assert that the bar can somehow leave our space it is up to you to show that such is possible.
This appears to be incoherent babble. If you are asserting that there is some force which enables the iron bar to leave our space please provide a rational argument that supports that claim.
The question is mistaken. The curvature is effected by mass, not space itself
1. An infinite unbounded space universe is closed since the infinite space is inclusive in the universe as being area in which anything existing does exist. It is an infinite universe having no bounds and no outside of.
2. Unbounded infinite space cannot curl up on itself.
3. Your 2D line can certainly join up to itself since it needs be straight in only 2 dimensions. My all dimensional bar model is not 2d and must be straight in all dimensions.
4. To clarify my poorly composed statement this is what I meant: It is the matter, energy and forces existing in the unbounded space/area of the universe, all having observational properties, which make the universe appear as spherical via the conglomerate forces such as gravity or electromagnetism existing in the universe's unbounded space/area and not space itself.
It appears that we now agree that mass is what makes the visible area of our universe appear spherical and we then agree that space does not have the property of the ability to curve. What we do not agree on is your contention that space is bounded.
So now the question appears to be: what are the properties of space which render it capable of having bounds with no space outside of the space bounds?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2008 2:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2008 1:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 09-11-2008 3:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 413 (481439)
09-10-2008 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by cavediver
09-10-2008 2:31 PM


Buz Not Arrogant. Buz Observes
cavediver writes:
It's because Buz is arrogant enough to think that the Universe should be perfectly comprehendable to his own common sense
No, Cavediver. Buz has enough sense to observe an unbended straight flag pole, bar, or the Washington Monument and conclude that nothing is going to connect the two ends of them without bending one of their dimensions. Your 2D model is bogus in a 3D universe. You people have had this nonsense programmed into your minds to the extent that you are willing to accept and argue a bogus 2D model in your 3D universe. I'm not buying it.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 09-10-2008 2:31 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by cavediver, posted 09-11-2008 3:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 09-11-2008 3:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 413 (481440)
09-10-2008 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by lyx2no
09-10-2008 3:56 PM


Re: I'll be Sitting Over There
lyx2no writes:
Let me try to get you to answer this question again. Once when I asked you thought it a stupid exercise. How do you derive your standard of "absolutely straight"? How do you determine whether your bar is straight? What do you measure it against? What tool(s) do you use?
My bar is straight in all dimensions. It's not 2D like yours (bogus) so it needn't be measured against anything. It works the same whether it's perpendicular to the earth surface, 45 degrees or horizontal. It remains straight all the way out into infinite unbounded space, since no property of space can affect any of it's dimensions.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by lyx2no, posted 09-10-2008 3:56 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by lyx2no, posted 09-11-2008 12:26 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 09-11-2008 5:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4717 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 39 of 413 (481443)
09-11-2008 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 11:16 PM


I'll be Twiddling My Thumbs
My bar is straight in all dimensions.
Oh goodie! How does one know it's straight?
It's not 2D like yours (bogus) .
Screw my totally bogus analogy. It's been nothing but a waste of time anyhow ” stupid analogy.
. so it needn't be measured against anything.
If one does not measure it how is one to know it is absolutely straight and not just so slightly bent that no one can detect the curve at any one location?
works the same whether it's perpendicular to the earth surface, 45 degrees or horizontal.
Screw the whole planet for that matter ” stupid planet.
It remains straight all the way out into infinite unbounded space .
With what methods and tools (thought tools as this is only a thought experiment, of course.) does one confirm its straightness?
. since no property of space can affect any of it's dimensions.
Bor-ing!
Bye the bye: You've used a ten thousand mile bar and a one billion mile bar as examples of how great your bar is. Do you realize how puny those measures are relitive to the scale under discussion? You'd not make it to ♄.

Kindly
When I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2008 8:23 AM lyx2no has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 40 of 413 (481446)
09-11-2008 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 10:59 PM


Re: Once More Unto the Breach
quote:
1. An infinite unbounded space universe is closed since the infinite space is inclusive in the universe as being area in which anything existing does exist. It is an infinite universe having no bounds and no outside of.
You mean that it is open, because it is infinite. If you are going to try to quibble over terminology, at least get the terminology right.
quote:
2. Unbounded infinite space cannot curl up on itself.
Then it isn't closed.
quote:
3. Your 2D line can certainly join up to itself since it needs be straight in only 2 dimensions. My all dimensional bar model is not 2d and must be straight in all dimensions.
This is completely incorrect. The line is straight in ALL THREE DIMENSIONS OF OUR SPACE.
quote:
4. To clarify my poorly composed statement this is what I meant: It is the matter, energy and forces existing in the unbounded space/area of the universe, all having observational properties, which make the universe appear as spherical via the conglomerate forces such as gravity or electromagnetism existing in the universe's unbounded space/area and not space itself.
That is slightly less incoherent but there is still nothing that explains how the straight bar can depart from the straight line (as you insist that it must) without leaving our three-dimensional space. - or any explanation of how it could do so.
quote:
It appears that we now agree that mass is what makes the visible area of our universe appear spherical and we then agree that space does not have the property of the ability to curve.
I certainly do not agree with either of those. What I said was that mass creates the curvature of space. A curvature which is NOT in any of our three dimensions and nothing to do with "appearing spherical".
Come off it Buz. When I say that mass causes the curvature I can hardly be denying the existence of the curvature !
quote:
What we do not agree on is your contention that space is bounded.
I have not made such a contention. Indeed the closed universe model, which you object to is quite definitely unbounded.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 10:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 41 of 413 (481452)
09-11-2008 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 12:08 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
if there were enough matter and energy to extend that rigid straight and tall monument up into the cosmos that the tip of it would go full circle around the alleged finite universe to form a circle to have the pointed tip top of it protrude up through planet earth and crash into the base of itself WITHOUT BENDING?
In an appropriate geometry, yes. You've been given an example: In spherical geometry, you don't even need "matter and energy" to make it happen: You simply need to move in a straight line because the very definition of "straight" in spherical geometry is to lie upon a great circle.
Now, we don't live in a universe based upon spherical geometry. However, we do live in a universe where space itself is warped. The definition of "straight" in our universe is defined by the path a photon takes in vacuum.
But we know that gravitational fields bend space. Sufficient gravitational fields placed strategically can, indeed, cause the path of a photon to double back upon itself.
And that path is necessarily straight as defined by the geometry of space itself.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 12:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 42 of 413 (481456)
09-11-2008 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 11:08 PM


Re: Buz Not Arrogant. Buz Observes
You people have had this nonsense programmed into your minds
Yes, Buz, we are all idiots even though we have been employed to teach this stuff at the world's top universities - we were employed based on how much nonsense had been programmed into us.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 43 of 413 (481459)
09-11-2008 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 10:59 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
2. Unbounded infinite space cannot curl up on itself.
Yes, it can. Does the term "torus" mean anything to you?
quote:
3. Your 2D line can certainly join up to itself since it needs be straight in only 2 dimensions. My all dimensional bar model is not 2d and must be straight in all dimensions.
But since the dimensions themselves can curve, "straight" only has meaning with regard to those dimensions. In our universe, the definition of "straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in a vacuum.
But mass and other gravitational sources warp space. Thus, a straight line can quite easily double back and cross itself.
quote:
which make the universe appear as spherical
The universe does not appear spherical.
quote:
mass is what makes the visible area of our universe appear spherical
Incorrect. The universe does not appear spherical.
quote:
What we do not agree on is your contention that space is bounded.
Incorrect. You are confusing "closed" with "bounded," and the two are not the same.
quote:
what are the properties of space which render it capable of having bounds with no space outside of the space bounds?
This is a nonsensical question. The entire point is to include everything. Therefore, the entire concept of "outside" is nonsensical.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 10:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 44 of 413 (481460)
09-11-2008 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 11:08 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
Buz has enough sense to observe an unbended straight flag pole, bar, or the Washington Monument
Incorrect. You have observed no such thing. None of those things are straight.
Only the path of a photon is straight. All of the things you mention have mass and exist within a gravitational field. Thus, those fields interact and throw them off of straight.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 413 (481470)
09-11-2008 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
09-10-2008 11:16 PM


Re: I'll be Sitting Over There
Buz you seem very reluctant to consider the question posed in Message 13
Is this because you are not confident enough in your Kindergarten cosmology model to actually hold it up to scrutiny?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2008 11:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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