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Author Topic:   Evidence for God
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 91 of 213 (481758)
09-12-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by bluescat48
09-12-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
This is the same thing as saying, "Where is the evidence that all of the scientists are not just creating fossils in there backyard?" You have to show me evidence that it has been changed! There is no evidence of any changes in the Torah, and there is evidence of changes in the Bible. You are assuming change with no facts to back it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by bluescat48, posted 09-12-2008 8:47 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by bluescat48, posted 09-12-2008 4:58 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 96 by Brian, posted 09-13-2008 9:43 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 92 of 213 (481765)
09-12-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by iano
09-02-2008 10:26 PM


Not Able = no God?
iano writes:
If God cannot do something as mundane as overcome impediements (to your mind) like the philosophy called Empiricism then he's certainly not capable of creating the men who dreamt it up.
Yet He has failed to do just that despite my fervent requests for Him to do so. This leaves 2 possibilities in my opinion.
1. He is not the one who created men, therefore he is not God.
2. He doesn't really want me to follow him.
Either case results in me not following the Christian version of a Supreme Being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by iano, posted 09-02-2008 10:26 PM iano has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 93 of 213 (481793)
09-12-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Open MInd
09-11-2008 9:09 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
Where is the evidence of your entire story? There is none.
That's not actually true is it? It's just that the evidence is sketchy and inconclusive with some gaps necessarily filled in. You asked 'what do you believe was the motive for the creation of this religion?' not 'tell me the uncontrovertable evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis'. Nevertheless - the non-Biblical evidence in favour of that historical hypothesis is better than the non-Biblical evidence for 600,000 people all simultaneously hearing the voice of God and only 1 person bothering to record it.
Additionally, most - if not all - of what I was talking about wasn't the Documentary Hypothesis. I was talking about the known phenomenon of Historicized Fiction and Fictionalized History.
. The Jews consider this man to be a false prophet, with all of the motives that I have described in other posts.
Indeed they do - in fact all religions but Islam do. Significant numbers of people say the same thing about Abraham and Moses.
The Muslims think that G-d changed his mind and gave a whole new set of rules through another prophet
No they don't. The Muslims think that the Jews' account had become corrupted and that a single unambiguous clarification was required.
However let me repeat myself, every single Torah scroll in use today is identical in every single way, with the exception of one letter
I'm not sure of the relevance to the argument at hand. If, in 5,000 years time there were a billion copies of the Lurr scrolls - all identical, would that be evidence that exists outside of the Lurr scrolls that Lurrism is the correct religion and all others are false?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 9:09 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 94 of 213 (481800)
09-12-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Open MInd
09-12-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
You are assuming change with no facts to back it up.
I am assuming change due to the fact that for the first x thousend years there was no actual writing and the stories were passed down by word of mouth.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Open MInd, posted 09-12-2008 12:37 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 95 of 213 (481823)
09-12-2008 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Open MInd
09-11-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
I'd agree that some are started for fame, money and power but to disregard the notion that religions aren't started to explain things is just ignorant.
If you look at the history of what we call Animism, the earliest form of religion, they are all created to explain things. African Animist still believe that the Gods must be placated for Rain. Even during the enlightened Hellenistic Age, there was a belief that man must sacrifice for the Gods. That good fortune was caused by Gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 3:01 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 96 of 213 (481882)
09-13-2008 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Open MInd
09-12-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
and there is evidence of changes in the Bible.
Such as........?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Open MInd, posted 09-12-2008 12:37 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 97 of 213 (482003)
09-13-2008 10:05 PM


A Real Skeptic
Some people think that I am very gullible for "blindly" following a religion. This is not true. I am extremely skeptical. When I began life, people were telling me what the purpose of this whole world is. This made perfect sense to me, and I found no logical flaws with what they were saying. I see that the world exists and I believe that it must have been created by someone. Then in my old age I became extremely skeptical. So skeptical that I realized that there is no way to prove that the world even does exist. In fact, all the people in the world could very well be figments of my imagination. If I would all of the sudden not be able to see, smell, hear, taste, or feel, the entire world would cease to exist. This makes me doubt the idea that the world even exists all together. I come to this conclusion, since I cannot prove that the world exists it must not really exist. However, I am still left with a problem. Where did I come from? Everyone in the world is telling me that I came from a man and a women. My parents tell me that I definitely came from them. However, they may just be figments of my imagination as well. I cannot prove that they are actually thinking beings that exist outside of my five senses. Therefore, on a personal level, I remain extremely skeptical. However, I still cannot explain where I came from. I therefore assume that some being out there must have created me. I then ask myself why this being has created me. I have no way of answering this question. Why would a being create me, and put me in a state where I have no idea why I was created? This seems counterintuitive. Then I finally got it. I was created to do what the illusionary religious leaders have been telling me to do. I do not know if I am alone in the world or if others are put here to do the same thing. All I know is that I was created and I was told what I was created for. The rest of the world may yet not even exist.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 09-13-2008 10:16 PM Open MInd has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 98 of 213 (482004)
09-13-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Open MInd
09-13-2008 10:05 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
So in other words, you're willing to doubt all the evidence your five "sentences" provide and conclude that the world may not exist, and at the same time assume the existence of a being that you cannot experience with any of your senses.
Have I got it about right?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Open MInd, posted 09-13-2008 10:05 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Open MInd, posted 09-13-2008 10:24 PM subbie has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 99 of 213 (482005)
09-13-2008 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by subbie
09-13-2008 10:16 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
According to the evidence, my conscious would be created through unconscious matter. This is something that science is still struggling with. If they do not know where the conscious comes from then they do not really know where the world comes from either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 09-13-2008 10:16 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by subbie, posted 09-13-2008 10:29 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 101 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-14-2008 10:02 AM Open MInd has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 100 of 213 (482006)
09-13-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Open MInd
09-13-2008 10:24 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
Open MInd writes:
According to the evidence, my conscious would be created through unconscious matter. This is something that science is still struggling with. If they do not know where the conscious comes from then they do not really know where the world comes from either.
Yes, well, as interesting as that is, I asked you a rather simple question:
quote:
So in other words, you're willing to doubt all the evidence your five "sentences" provide and conclude that the world may not exist, and at the same time assume the existence of a being that you cannot experience with any of your senses.
Have I got it about right?
It really calls for a yes or no answer, either that's what you said or not.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Open MInd, posted 09-13-2008 10:24 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Open MInd, posted 09-14-2008 5:46 PM subbie has replied

  
likemindedchocolatebar
Junior Member (Idle past 5673 days)
Posts: 5
From: Hershey, Pennsylvania
Joined: 09-09-2008


Message 101 of 213 (482046)
09-14-2008 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Open MInd
09-13-2008 10:24 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
According to the evidence, my conscious would be created through unconscious matter. This is something that science is still struggling with. If they do not know where the conscious comes from then they do not really know where the world comes from either. According to the evidence, my conscious would be created through unconscious matter. This is something that science is still struggling with. If they do not know where the conscious comes from then they do not really know where the world comes from either.
I don't thnink this is truthfully a fair statement for yourself. If you are so unaware, then how can you believe that the book where you lay all your faith in is so correct either. Their is no function of your book that allows for it to be absolute truth, when you don't even trust your own eyes. Also I think it is correct to admit their are numerous cases of emergent properties in the universe. Life and consciousness being two examples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Open MInd, posted 09-13-2008 10:24 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Open MInd, posted 09-14-2008 6:01 PM likemindedchocolatebar has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 213 (482096)
09-14-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by subbie
09-13-2008 10:29 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
Let me guess, you are saying that life is either green or blue. Is this what you are saying? This is a yes or no question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by subbie, posted 09-13-2008 10:29 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by subbie, posted 09-15-2008 7:46 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 103 of 213 (482100)
09-14-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by likemindedchocolatebar
09-14-2008 10:02 AM


Re: A Real Skeptic
I can believe this book because it was taught to me as truth. Since I have no proof of anything in the world other than my own existence, I am assuming that whoever created me intended for me to have this book and consider it truth. Since the rest of the world may not even exist, there is no proof that I could possibly be born into any other religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-14-2008 10:02 AM likemindedchocolatebar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-15-2008 5:32 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 109 by bluescat48, posted 09-15-2008 11:34 PM Open MInd has replied

  
likemindedchocolatebar
Junior Member (Idle past 5673 days)
Posts: 5
From: Hershey, Pennsylvania
Joined: 09-09-2008


Message 104 of 213 (482264)
09-15-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Open MInd
09-14-2008 6:01 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
You didn't exactly pop out of you mommie with the book in hand though did you? Someone had to indocirnate you into believing what you believe. Let's be honest, if you were born somewhere else you would have been led to believe whatever they believe and you would declare it with as much passion and what you obscure as truth, as you do now.
Edited by likemindedchocolatebar, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Open MInd, posted 09-14-2008 6:01 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 09-15-2008 7:37 PM likemindedchocolatebar has replied
 Message 113 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 1:28 PM likemindedchocolatebar has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 105 of 213 (482309)
09-15-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by likemindedchocolatebar
09-15-2008 5:32 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
Open Mind was indeed born holding THE book. That is why he is so open minded. Obviously. It is his mother I feel sorry for.......
BTW - Like Minded Chocolate Bar? Did you take that from a recent series of silly posts I exchanged with Syamsu? Or is it just coincidence? Either way - Good login name!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-15-2008 5:32 PM likemindedchocolatebar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by likemindedchocolatebar, posted 09-15-2008 8:30 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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