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Author Topic:   IS There only one god?
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 16 of 20 (47908)
07-29-2003 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by THEONE
07-29-2003 3:02 AM


TheOne writes:

The god of Caanan was Baali Looks like hebrew word Baal but not quite the same.


You didn't even read the reference did you?

Baali means "my baal." Not quite the same, yes. More astounding to the average Christian? Yes.

As far as different translation of word Baal. You are right, just like any hebrew word it has multiple meanings. Most common use of which is Master. Regardless of KJV translation methods.

!!! Can you back up these outlandish assertions?

A. - Many Hebrew words have only one meaning. Sometimes it takes a number of different English words to make sense of them in a different contexts.

B. - I have just demonstrated that the most common translation of baal is the word "man." It does, of course, often appear untranslated in which cases it is traditionally understood as a "false god;" except when used in many place names, where it is understood to mean "lord.": Baal Berith (lord of the covenant); Baal Hermon (lord of Hermon); etc. These two are obvious references to Jehovah.

The passage I cited earlier, Hosea 2:16, indicates that Jehovah wants them to someday quit calling him "my baal" (baali) and start calling him "my husband" (ishi).

My source. Young's Analytical Concordanc to the Bible.

What is your source?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by THEONE, posted 07-29-2003 3:02 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by THEONE, posted 07-30-2003 5:46 PM doctrbill has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 17 of 20 (48087)
07-30-2003 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by doctrbill
07-29-2003 2:04 PM


Ishi and Baali can both mean "my husband", but with different connotations. Ishi, literally, "my man", implies a relationship based on love; but Balli, literally, "my master", can also refer to a relationship based on fear of a superior.

Reference, Stone Edition Tanach, Artscroll Series, Mesorah Publication; Commentaries on bible by Rashi (1040-1105).

Another thing... if you look at Original Hebrew Scrolls, all of this is actually in Hosea 2:18 not in 2:16. But when you have your own way of translation (in this case KJV) alot can get changed or twisted...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by doctrbill, posted 07-29-2003 2:04 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by doctrbill, posted 07-30-2003 10:28 PM THEONE has responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 18 of 20 (48100)
07-30-2003 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by THEONE
07-30-2003 5:46 PM


I see that you have been studying. This is good.
I like what you have referenced.
quote:
Ishi and Baali can both mean "my husband", but with different connotations. Ishi, literally, "my man", implies a relationship based on love; but Balli, literally, "my master", can also refer to a relationship based on fear of a superior.
There's one opinion to enter into your mental data base. And, except for what may be perceived as indirectly suggesting a limit on how baal may be understood, I have no problem with it. But translating baal as Master in every case may not be a good idea.

Here's just one example of a place where rendering baal as Master might not work too well: "... the woman ... she is a man's wife [baal]" Genesis 20:3. On second thought, it would be kinda cute to give it Master in this case.

if you look at Original Hebrew Scrolls, all of this is actually in Hosea 2:18 not in 2:16.

Uh oh. Now your slip is showing. There are no "original" Hebrew scrolls of any biblical book, including Hosea. And the original scrolls would have had neither the chapter and verse designations nor the Masoretic pronunciation marks.

But when you have your own way of translation (in this case KJV) alot can get changed or twisted...

My own way? Do you mean the KJV's own way? At any rate I have compared other versions and your source does not appear to disagree with any of them.

Our discussion, however, began with your assertion that:

A. - Baal can only be translated as Master, and
B. - Baali is not a Hebrew word.

I believe you understand this more fully now.

The Living Bible renders baali "My Master." which I am sure would please you. But then, in the footnote it reads, Literally, "my Baal," meaning "my Lord," but this was a tainted word because applied to idols, so it will no longer be used in referene to the true God.
Which, evidently, it was at that time.

Well, there's one more opinion to enter into your data base. Hope it doesn't mess up your theory too much.

Thank you for your response.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by THEONE, posted 07-30-2003 5:46 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 07-31-2003 6:15 AM doctrbill has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 19 of 20 (48143)
07-31-2003 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by doctrbill
07-30-2003 10:28 PM


Here's just one example of a place where rendering baal as Master might not work too well: "... the woman ... she is a man's wife [baal]" Genesis 20:3. On second thought, it would be kinda cute to give it Master in this case.

The phrase you are referencing here is "Be-oo-lat Ba-al". KJV translates it as man's wife. I'm not saying it's wrong, but if that's the only translation you know, let me return the favor and expand your limits just a bit . The word for man is "ish" as we previously established. Be-oo-lat can also mean that, however the word "oo-lat" also means "marriage" prefix "Be" means "in" or "with". Just like in Be-resheat - "In the begging..."(Genesis 1:1). So "Be-oo-lat Ba-al" can mean, in marrige (or married) to a Master (or Great Man). And we must agree that Abraham was a master or at least a great man. I mean, God describes him as a Prophet just a few lines down the page (Genesis 20:7 I think).

So on one hand we can read that God is about to punish Abimelech for taking a man's wife. On the other hand, we can read He will punish him for: Ve-hiv Be-oo-lat Ba-al,(because) she is married to a Great Man. Do I think that latter is more important or better? Not at all. But latter is more interesting to me... Because now we are left with wondering... What if he wasn't a great man? Would God still come to Abimelech in a dream? would He demand for Sarah to be freed? is it right that even an unmarried woman must fear the whim of every prince?

But anyways... The point is the same: "It's not yours... give it back!"

Our discussion, however, began with your assertion that:

A. - Baal can only be translated as Master, and
B. - Baali is not a Hebrew word.

A. My assertion was "As far as different translation of word Baal. You are right, just like any hebrew word it has multiple meanings. Most common "Master""... Where do you see word ONLY? Please, don't put words into my mouth...

B. I said Baali was not the same as Hebrew word Baal. Again... please, don't twist things. But you are right it just simply means "my Baal"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by doctrbill, posted 07-30-2003 10:28 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by doctrbill, posted 07-31-2003 2:24 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 20 of 20 (48226)
07-31-2003 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by THEONE
07-31-2003 6:15 AM


Interesting exegesis. The flesh of your post is rather nice, but the bones leave something to be desired. In the interest of time and space, I will address only the bones.

Our exchange began when you challenged a statement from Jake:

Jake22 writes:

... Baal is a "god" of the OT. He is considered a deity


To which you replied:

TheOne writes:

Baal simply means "Master" in hebrew and has nothing to do with God.


And then:

TheOne writes:

The god of Caanan was Baali. Looks like hebrew word Baal but not quite the same.


And then you attempt to deny your statement:

TheOne writes:

I said Baali was not the same as Hebrew word Baal.


And:

TheOne writes:

... just like any hebrew word it has multiple meanings.


Then you complain that I am twisting things:

TheOne writes:

... please, don't twist things.

At first you say Baal has nothing to do with God, and then you claim he is a deity.

At first you say Baal simply means ‘master,’ and then you say it has multiple meanings.

Who is twisting things?

Is your perception evolving in step with your argument?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 07-31-2003 6:15 AM THEONE has not yet responded

  
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