The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Buz, would it be helpful to know that the curvature of spacetime has been measured directly by satellites orbiting the Earth?
This involved no measurements of light, e.t.c. It really was just a measurement of spacetime. So the curvature of spacetime is an empirical fact. Even ignoring GR, we know spacetime is curved.

My only aim is to try and make you understand why it is that 4D maths is necessary and not some sort of big con as you relentlessly keep asserting. This involves nothing more than the ability to count.If you want to plot the motion of a ball in 3D space (e.g. in a park) on a graph you need 3 axes and 3 co-ordinates to describe the position of the ball at any point. Your axes will look like the corner of a cube.If you want to add another axes to your graph to represent time so that you can show the motion of the ball in 3 spatial dimensions plus timeThen you need four lines all at right angles with each other. This is a 4D graph. Hence the 4D maths.3 + 1 = 4. It is that simple.I again suggest you read Message 127 for a more detailed explanation of this depressingly simple concept.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Yes that is quite mind bending. Cheers for the correction and clarification.At this point all I even hope to get Buz to understand is that when we talk about 4D we are not, as he repeatedly asserts, inventing unevidenced parallel dimensions for the purposes of conning old men into believing the ungodly idea that straight bars do perverse and unrighteaous things like meet up at the ends. Rather we are merely talking about giving a co-ordinate for each of the 3 standard spatial dimensions plus time and that to do this requires 4 axes and therefore 4 dimensional maths.Wish me luck.........Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Careful there. As I understand it (and this is consistent with Cavediver's post) the use of time as a fourth dimension is not related to the curvature of space. We use a fourth spatial dimesnion to describe (and myabe quantify) that curvature, but it's a separate issue.

Understood. I agree and that's fine.
My point is that I think we are overestimating Buz's capacity for any of this.Curvature and the like are just not concepts that are going to sink in.He seems to honestly not appreciate the simple fact that a mathematical model that defines position in 3 dimensions and also includes time is effectively a 4D mathemataical model.He is insistent that any talk of 4D is mathematical bamboozlement intended only to cover the wool over his eyes and deny his 3D existence.If we can just get him to realise the simple reality of 4 co-ordinates requiring 4D maths then that, in my opinion, is the best we can hope for.

But I understand how adding the time dimension skews my 3D model position/argument in this thread by curving dimensions.Nobody has refuted my explanation of how adding the time dimension to 1D line math/geometric models obfuscate and skew my real measurable 3D model. I've explained how geometric lines can be curve but my measurable 3D bar dimensions can not be curved.Now you're ignoring the valid points made in my message and reverting right back to the mathematical 1D line models which is motion of a ball. The path of the ball is nothing but geometrics and numbers, which in time can be curved.In your original setting regarding this, the path of the ball thrown was from one end of an uncurvable bar but your dimension argument relative to the dimensions of the path of the ball model had no application of the straight bar.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

See! Any comments Nem?

GONG! By the same token I could say that the property of Jehovah, the Biblical god is that he exists, Jehovah meaning the existing oneBiblical god Jehovah exists because Jehovah is god = curvature of space exists because space curves.The question remains unanswered: What is the property of space which allows curvature of space?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

We're still waiting for something substantive (abe: rather) than snide remarks from you, Ned, beginning with your Admin remarks. Is it because you're incapable of specifying why my arguments are invalid? Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

It is the curvature itself. Spacetime has curvature as a property.The full on answer is that the concept of distance itself changes across the universe and it is this "change in the definition of distance" that causes curvature.

um. Because it tastes like an apple? You're speaking nonsense buz.let's put it this way. What property of space do you think keeps it flat (since you obviously think space is flat)?

Enjoy.this is free for all. Where everyone can take a little piece of buz home with him. Just don't get buzzed. Unless you want to, then just make sure it's good quality buzzing material.

Yet again you miss the point. I am not trying to corrupt your world view. I am not curving anything. Stop looking for a fight and just listen.I have given up trying to convince you of anything even remotely contentious. My sole aim is to make you understand why 4D maths is required to describe the motion of everyday 3D objects as time progresses. Forget curvature. Forget GR. These are irrelevant. It is simply a case of counting.3+1=4I have tested this explanation on my 10 year old nephew and he got it straight away. Admittedly he had the advantage of seeing sketches in front of him but still........Once more unto the breach:EXPLANATION

If you want to write down the position of a ball being thrown around a park then at any given position you need one co-ordinate for each spatial dimension.

Therefore you need 3 co-ordinates. One co-ordinate for length. One co-ordinate for height. One co-ordinate for breadth.

So with 3 numbers you can write down the position of the ball at any given point.

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Are you with me so far? Nothing contentious there I hope!!

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If you were to draw this you would need a graph with 3 axes. One axis for length. One axis for height. One axis for breadth.

The axes of this graph would therefore look like the corner of a cube. Three lines. Each one at right angles to the other two.

The position of the ball would be a point somewhere inside this cube based on the co-ordinates of it's position

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Are you still with me? This is nothing more than the very basic concept of co-ordinates and plotting points.
With this model we can take a "snapshot" and show the position of the ball at any given instant. However we cannot show anything that involves the normal progression of time. We cannot plot the motion of the ball as time progresses because we have no time axis on which to measure time.

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We want to add time information so that we not only know the position of the ball we also know when it was in that position.

As well as our 3 spatial co-ordinates we now need to write down a time that corresponds to when the ball was at that position.

Therefore we need 4 numbers to describe the position of the ball at any given point. The three numbers for the position. And one number for the time. 4 co-ordinates.

We want to add this time information to our existing graph. How do we do this?

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In case the answer is not obvious I'll tell you. We need to add another axis to our graph to represent time. We need another line that is at right angles to all of the already existing lines that make up our position-only graph.

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For 4 co-ordeinates we need 4 axes.

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Buz Challenge: Now you try drawing that graph and tell me where you think the problem might be

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Please note: I have made no references to anything curving. We are simply plotting points to describe the motion of a ball. In a park as it is thrown around and a normal clock ticks along counting normal everyday commonsense friendly time.

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It could not be more simple.

You have found evidence of God, Buz. But you need not rely on something as complicated as space curvature. What is the property of donuts that there is a hole in the middle? It's called holiness, buz. (Swiss cheese is fundamentalist fromage ” orthodox ost, maybe? But baby swiss would still be atheistic.)Biblical God Jehovah exists because Jehovah is God = Holes in donuts exist because donuts have holes.Just in case this went over your head: the hole in the donut is the property that has a hole in a donut.Edited by lyx2no, : Add quote.

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KindlyWhen I was young I loved everything about cigarettes: the smell, the taste, the feel . everything. Now that I’m older I’ve had a change of heart. Want to see the scar?

Are you aware that "ost" is cheese in swedish?what's the bet that buz will either not get your post or claim it irrelevant to his un-model?Edited by kuresu, : spelling