The Big Bang machine (the Large Hadron Collider (LHC))

A lot of media coverage has been covered lately on the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), a particle accelerator designed to simulate what might have happened seconds before and after the singularity (Plancks Time). The single most important event for the experiment is to reproduce what is known in physics circles as the Higgs Boson. This monstrous machine has taken over 13 years to construct to the tune of around 6 billion dollars.While this machine serves as a basis to marvel at the feats of human engineering and ingenuity, I have questioned the validity and purpose of the experiment itself.What is the purpose of this experiment if it offers nothing to gain by it, other than perhaps to satisfy the curiosity of physicists? The other question is what can be lost as a result of the experiment. A number of other physicists, including some Pulitzer Prize inductees, challenge that the experiment could potentially cause something tragic. Some allege that a black hole enveloping earth as we know it is possible.I can not touch on this point as I am not in the position to fully grasp the implications of their warnings. It may be science fiction and it may be science fact. For now, suppose the possibility exists.The question is: Is there anything to be gained by the experiment if so much could be lost?In my mind, nothing will come of this other than to confirm the Big Bang, something most physicists already are certain of based on other experiments and observations. The second thing it does not remove is the chicken/egg problem. Eternal particles still don't make any sense, and in that way, the concept of God is not challenged.So what is the point if it is monetarily costly and nothing of intrinsic value can be gained by it. And is it worth risking the minority opinion of black holes ripping through the fabric of the space-time continuum, posing a risk to earth's existence?Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(the Large Hadron Collider (LHC))" part to the topic title.

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“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

The purpose is not so much to confirm the Big Bang as to compelte the theory. Our understanding breaks down for the earliest moments because we have until now been unable to replicate the conditions present - the LHC is able to do so, and should greatly help us better understand the moment immediately after T=0. This, in turn, may allow us to better understand the relationships between the fundamental forces of physics, and may help lead to the Grand Unifying Theory that physicists have been searching for.As for the possible benefits - well, we have no way of knowing. After all, when Einstein figured out general relativity, you could have said that it was nothing more than "satisfying the curiosity of some scientists." Of course, it has led us to a far greater understanding of the Universe we live in, as well as practical applications. E=MC^2, of course, was simply "satisfying curiosity," but directly resulted in nuclear power and (unfortunately) weapons.Other particle accelerators allowed us to experiment with antimatter - which may someday provide us with a power source dwarfing even that of nuclear fusion.Not everything needs to have immediate practical applications, NJ. Science is not the study of things we can immediately use, but the study of the Universe around us for its own sake. Practical applications come later, when scientists and engineers figure out how to use those discoveries to improve our lives.As for those fears of a black hole consuming the Earth...it's not just a minority opinion, NJ. As I recall, that absurdity was first uttered by a chemist, not a physicist, who likely had little better comprehension of what a black hole really is than you or I. The black holes that may be created in the LHC are so tiny and have such small energy that they would almost immediately evaporate. They aren't capable of swallowing the Earth. Not all black holes have the same mass, remember. A black hole is simply sufficiently dense so as to create a singularity and an event horizon from which light cannot escape. A microscopic black hole could have a mass of less than a gram Its event horizon would be pitifully tiny, and its gravitational force would still be defined by its mass - it would have the same gravitational pull as a gram of stone or anything else. That's not strong enough to start sucking matter in from even tiny distances. The Earth's mass would still be the dominant force at work, not that of the black hole, and so the hole would quickly evaporate through Hawking radiation without any matter to feed on.A few people unfortunately took that chemist's fears and ran with them, and now we have a significant minority of extremely paranoid folks who don't understand the physics thinking that the End is Nigh. I saw one Youtube video where someone claimed the LHC is actually a gateway to Hell created by the Free Masons - it's nothing more than conspiracy-theorist ignorance and paranoia combining into a critical mass of pure stupidity. Idiocy of that type has a far greater chance of ending the world as we know it than the LHC.So the machine is expensive, sure. But there is no realistic risk. It's just a rather pricey machine for use in better discovering the nature of our Universe. And if you really don't think that knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit for its own sake...well, that would actually explain a lot, NJ.

I'm in a rush, so thia has to brief:Why do it:
Previous direct benefits from this type of research include medical PET scans, MRI scans, CAT scans, cancer treatment, the entire field of nuclear science, and development of quantum theory without which your PC and just about every other digital high-tech device you possess would not exist. That's off the top of my head. Check here for a better list. None of this was foreseen when accelerators were first developed. Do you want to stop developing them now?Of course, let us not forget the extreme training of thousands of engineers, technicians, and scientists, most of whom will go off and apply that training elsewhere in life. And then simply the inspiration that Big Science provides, igniting young minds and ensuring a new generation of scientists. Fine - why not up your stance by foregoing all of the above. At the very least, I guess we won't be seeing you here at EvC again...Danger:
If you spend 3 hours each day worrying that just one of the trillion trillion cosmic rays that zap into our atmosphere each day, will cause the end of the earth or the entire Universe - then because of the LHC, you can now start worrying for an extra 1/1000th of a second, each day.It's like being denounced for driving your car in New York, because cars are dangerous and you have just introduced a massive risk to the city. You reply, 'what about all the other cars?' 'What other cars?' they reply with confusion. You can always find highly qualified idiots... If you want to understand black holes, you need to talk to black hole experts, not watch the Disney film. Black holes are not just the big swirly, sucky-in things. If the LHC can create one black hole, then black holes are being created all around you in their billions, every second, without the help of the LHC. How many times have you been ripped to pieces so far today? Admittedly, that could be a problem, because the primary purpose of particle physics and the LHC is of course to prove that God does not exist Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Well, if it helps, the US only payed roughly USD 500 million towards the project. The natural gas pipeline that Palin hasn't built is estimated to cost USD 26 billion, take roughly as long to get online, and then do what, precisely? Allow us to, in the words of Abogot, keep on sipping the poison. The pipeline has no immediate benefit and yet people want it. It doesn't have any real use towards getting the US unhooked from oil or true energy independence, and yet people still want.When it comes to this, we build it because we want to, not because we need to. The interested parties found the backing, and quite frankly, 6 billion dollars is about one-third the annual earmarks in the federal budget. 6 billion dollars is nothing compared to the half-trillion we spend on defense.One final note--the Pulitzer Prize is a literary award (with one music category, go figure). Were you thinking of the Nobel award? If a scientist who won the Pulitzer Prize (assuming that was the only thing to his credit) came out against it it would be like Johnson coming out against evolution (what business does a law professor have in science?).

According to Wiki HereI have read in several places that the purpose is to find the Higgs bosom.The Higgs bosom particle is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle and a part of the Higgs field.This is the field that would supply Guth his building blocks for his inflation theory and Hawking Turok their instanton.The problem is Turok said their instanton required:

quote:

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To have our instanton, you have to have gravity, matter,
space and time. Take any one ingredient away, and the instanton doesn't exist.

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Here page 13. This is a Post Script article.Since there is no thing outside of the universe, gravity, matter, space and time, where could the Higgs field exist? How could it confirm the BB? The field the Higgs bosom is a part of could not exist outside of the universe and the universe did not exist. Finding a little ointment to soothe a troubled conscience.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ICANT,Please stop posting to this thread. Thanks.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I am so super scared of this experiment. They said it was going to start up miniature black-holes and could destroy the world.I dont think we should do it because we have a right to life. Just like un-born baby children. If you try to take that right away, especially for all of humanity, I think you should rot in jail. Forever.America would never be so careless to perform such a worthless experiment that could put everyone alive at risk. We're better than that. Leave it to the Swiss, or whoe-ever the heck it is, to start putting "holes" in our precious Earth. And ending the world.God, we need to stop this. We should start a movement. Grab your pitchforks gang.

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"Give me Jonas, or give me death!"

What is there possibly to benefit from the death of us all? How could you encourage this.I know, I know, it's not 100% possible that something bad will happen, but its atleast a little possible. Even if it's less than 1/20 of a percent. It's still there.That's big enough for me, because any percentage, you have to multiply by 6 billion, to account for each life that will be lost, so that makes it much, much higher! And don't forget about God's other friends, like squirrels and Koala bears, there's million of animals that will die too! And there life counts for atleast maybe 1/10 of ours.No to the super-earth destroyer!

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"Give me Jonas, or give me death!"

By your logic, we should abandon planes, trains and automobiles too. There's a possibility that you die when you ride in one, so they're evil and against god!Don't you see you can't live life like this, if you have to account for eveything that COULD happen, you aren't save annywhere, there's no point in this. I find it quite stupid in fact.Edited by Huntard, : Spellings

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I hunt for the truth

Interesting stuff, Cavediver. Thanks for the info. I don't think many people understand the potential scientific and technological advances that can be associated with this kind of research.