The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

mike the wiz responds to me:

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Hey - straight is straight

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But what does that mean? How do you determine if something is "straight" as opposed to "not straight"? We need a definition."Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition or not?

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instead of botherings with semantics, let's just agree on the definition everybody uses.

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But what is that definition? It tends to be defined as "not bent or curved," but that isn't very helpful because it defines it in terms of something else that isn't well defined.A standard to compare against would be helpful, wouldn't it?"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition of not?

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For debate, it should be the definition everyone knows.

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What if the definition "everyone knows" is wrong? But considering that the only person who has given a definition of "straight" is me, might you be kind enough to answer the simple question put forward?"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition or not?

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If Buz was using a different definition, then his motives could be questioned.

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But we haven't even made it that far. A definition has been put forward. All that has been asked is if he agrees with it or not. So far, he has done everything he can to avoid the question."Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do we agree with that definition or not?

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As it's you who is doing it, it is now your motives that are being questioned.

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But I haven't stated any motivations at all. I've just proferred a definition and asked if we can agree with it.It's possible that the answer is no. But so far, he has been incapable of providing even that as an answer.

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So here's our definition;
______________

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There you go.

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And exactly how do we use that to determine if something is straight? And you're assuming that someone is using a font that results in this "straight" line. And doesn't it also assume that my monitor is "straight"? This definition you're using isn't very helpful.What about mine?"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition or not?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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1a : free from curves, bends, angles, or irregularities

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b : generated by a point moving continuously in the same direction and expressed by a linear equation

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As I said, it depends on what the definition relates to.
a. = 3D
b. = 2D
4D equates to b. or 2D for the reason I have stated and substantiated.

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Strictly speaking b applies only to 2D. But it is nonsense to say that it applies to 4D any more than 3D. (In fact it is obvious that it cannot apply to 4D but not 3D since 3D geometry is a subset of 4D.). However, b can be extended easily enough to deal with 3D and 4D.

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Obviously you have NOT stated or substantiated any such claim anywhere in the thread. (How can you substantiate a claim that any knowledgeable person can see to be false anyway ?)

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Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

mike the wiz writes:

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I am not a space-time physicist, neither is anyone here as far as I know.

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Ahem. Speak for yourself.

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For the sake of debate it makes sense that the least of us should understand what is being discussed.

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And what about my definition is so difficult to understand?"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition or not?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Buzsaw writes:

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ABE: Merriam Webster

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1a : free from curves, bends, angles, or irregularities
b : generated by a point moving continuously in the same direction and expressed by a linear equation

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As I said, it depends on what the definition relates to.
a. = 3D
b. = 2D

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Huh?In Cartesian coordinates, the line passing through (x₀, y₀, z₀) and parallel to the vector [a, b, c] is given by the linear parametric equations:x = x₀ + at
y = y₀ + bt
z = z₀ + ctThe variable "t" does not stand for "time." It is simply a parametric variable which by convention is usually labeled "t" (just as the variables for spatial dimensions by convention are labeled "x," "y,", and "z").So why would "a point moving continuously in teh same direction and expressed by a linear equation" necessarily be defined as "4D"?Twentieth time:"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with that definition or not?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

1. Whether space is curved or not a 4D model is still required. Whether or not the bar bends or not a 4D model is still required.
2. The empirical evidence of our universe all tells us that space is curved. But whether or not space is curved a 4D model is required regardless.Any model of the universe that includes 3 spatial dimensions and time will need to be a 4D model. But a ball moving in 3 spatial dimensions as time progresses is about as common sense and everyday an example as it is possible to get. If your "model" of tyhe universe is unable to cope with this scenario it can hardly be said to reflect reality now can it?Your "model" of the universe consists of you waving your hands in three directions and yelling "Look. Look. Look" It is not a method of modelling or representing anything.To describe the motion of objects in 3 spatial dimensions you need a time component. You need co-ordinates that represent time as well as co-ordinates to represent the position in terms of each of the 3 spatial dimensions.Without this there is no means of representing motion, calculating velocity or determining acceleration. A 3D model is therefore insufficiant.A 4D model is essential regardless of curvature, bent bars, BB, GR or any of the other things that you find so darned offensive.Your inability and refusal to grasp this unbelievably simple point is utterly perplexing to me. It is obvious. A child can see it.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Straggler, your non-answer totally avoided answering the two questions. We need yes or no answers and why.All you did is repeat your unsubstantiated claim that 4D is required without answering the questions.1. Obviously the answer to #1 has to be that no property of space will stop the sudden extension of the (abe: not curved) bar and you simply don't want to admit that fact.2. Obviously the answer to #2 is that the ends would not meet with this model and you simply don't want to admit that fact. THESE QUESTIONS ARE BUMPED FOR ANYONE ELSE WHO CARES TO RESPOND WITH YES OR NO AND WHY. Edited by Buzsaw, : quote fix Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Cavediver,Hi, could you explain what would happen at r<3m? Did you get around to explaining this?Would the figures appear to move closer to each other for the man in the corridor?Cheers-Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

No, you wouldn't see any figures any more because as with r>3M, the corridor is curved. However, now it curves the wrong way (i.e. if the blak hole is to your left, the corridor curves away to the right)

Where does it go if perpendicular to the event horizon and continuously extended?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Well, I doubt you will ever get a definition of straight from those you are asking, so I will give it a go on their behalf.A line (or bar) is considered straight if any two planes that are perpendicular to the line are also parallel.I believe this defines straight as Buz wants.Mind you, it does beg the question, what defines two planes as parallel in warped space?Edited by Codegate, : No reason given.

Unsubstantiated? Tell me Buz how would you model the movement of an object in 3D in a given period of time without using 4 dimensions?

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Ah ha! I understand now, thanks.Sounds like a fun idea for an animation...Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

There you go again, attempting to slip in the time non-spatial time dimension which has nothing to do with my 3D rigid bar through the back door.How about forthrightly answering my two questions relative to an instant extension bar model? It appears that everybody's running from those questions so far.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

What do you mean by continuoysly extended? How do you 'continuously extend' a photon? Do you mean, trace out the path that photon would take?

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Suppose my 3D not bended straight bar model were to extend suddenly (abe: from 3 ft.) to beyond the edge of the universe.
1. What could possibly stop it or curve it?

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2. Abe: Would it's ends connect?

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Assuming a closed universe, that the bar is straight in our three dimensions and that it doesn't have magic properties that let it break out of our three-dimensional space:1) It would run into itself. Even if it was curved it would have to do that eventually.2) If it was straight, they would.