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Author Topic:   Questions for Atheists
Dash on the Darkside
Junior Member (Idle past 5670 days)
Posts: 2
From: Gig Harbor, WA
Joined: 09-15-2008


Message 106 of 110 (482146)
09-15-2008 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by mike the wiz
09-13-2008 2:30 PM


Mike writes:
Purpose of motive has been proven to exist in the physical universe. I refer to a "extra cause" being present within an event.
It seems that you are arguing the "Five Ways" according to St. Thomas Aquinas.
  1. First Way: The Argument of Motion
    1. Nothing can move itself.
    2. If every object in motion has a mover then the first object had a mover.
    3. The first mover is the immovable mover, God.
  2. Second Way: Causation Effect
    1. Things exist that were caused by other things.
    2. Nothing can cause itself.
    3. There cannot be an endless string of things causing other things.
    4. Therefore god must be the first cause.
Thomas goes on to list other factors and observations as part of his "logic" as to the "proof" of god/creator. It seems that Thomas based his "arguments" on the teachings of Aristotle.
I believe however, that the philosopher Parmenides was the first to offer the argument "Ex nihil nihil fit", or "From nothing, comes nothing". (A quick search on google shows I am correct about Parmenides (at least according to the web).)
I haven't read the "Five Ways" for sometime, but I've seen the argument enough times to recognize it quite readily, especially given the context here.
I could be incorrect about the order and exact wording, but it's one in the morning and I'm too lazy to research it much at this point, please forgive me if my memory is a bit fuzzy, and do point out if/where I am incorrect.
Edited by Dash on the Darkside, : Because I'm a moron and apparently I don't know how to format a list correctly.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, that's just how your god made me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2008 2:30 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Rrhain, posted 09-16-2008 11:30 PM Dash on the Darkside has replied

  
Dash on the Darkside
Junior Member (Idle past 5670 days)
Posts: 2
From: Gig Harbor, WA
Joined: 09-15-2008


Message 110 of 110 (482934)
09-19-2008 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rrhain
09-16-2008 11:30 PM


Rrhain writes:
If nothing can cause itself, that means god cannot either.
Agreed.
Rrhain writes:
In both cases, if we allow that god can self-create and self-move, why can't the universe?
I was merely making an observation of Open Mind's argument, at no point did I say I agree with his premise. In fact, I do not.
The point of my post was to show that the argument has been done before and it was just as full of holes then. The logic simply doesn't support Thomas' argument.
I have no reason to believe that the universe cannot "self-start" or "re-start" for that matter.
I can't say with any degree of certainty that this is the first or the hundreth or the hundreth-thousand go around for this universe.
Edited by Dash on the Darkside, : Spelling error fix.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, that's just how your god made me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rrhain, posted 09-16-2008 11:30 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
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