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Author | Topic: The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
mike the wiz responds to me:
quote: But what does that mean? How do you determine if something is "straight" as opposed to "not straight"? We need a definition. "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition or not?
quote: But what is that definition? It tends to be defined as "not bent or curved," but that isn't very helpful because it defines it in terms of something else that isn't well defined. A standard to compare against would be helpful, wouldn't it? "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition of not?
quote: What if the definition "everyone knows" is wrong? But considering that the only person who has given a definition of "straight" is me, might you be kind enough to answer the simple question put forward? "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition or not?
quote: But we haven't even made it that far. A definition has been put forward. All that has been asked is if he agrees with it or not. So far, he has done everything he can to avoid the question. "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do we agree with that definition or not?
quote: But I haven't stated any motivations at all. I've just proferred a definition and asked if we can agree with it. It's possible that the answer is no. But so far, he has been incapable of providing even that as an answer.
quote: And exactly how do we use that to determine if something is straight? And you're assuming that someone is using a font that results in this "straight" line. And doesn't it also assume that my monitor is "straight"? This definition you're using isn't very helpful. What about mine? "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition or not? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Strictly speaking b applies only to 2D. But it is nonsense to say that it applies to 4D any more than 3D. (In fact it is obvious that it cannot apply to 4D but not 3D since 3D geometry is a subset of 4D.). However, b can be extended easily enough to deal with 3D and 4D. Obviously you have NOT stated or substantiated any such claim anywhere in the thread. (How can you substantiate a claim that any knowledgeable person can see to be false anyway ?) Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
mike the wiz writes:
quote: Ahem. Speak for yourself.
quote: And what about my definition is so difficult to understand? "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition or not? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Buzsaw writes:
quote: Huh? In Cartesian coordinates, the line passing through (x0, y0, z0) and parallel to the vector [a, b, c] is given by the linear parametric equations: x = x0 + aty = y0 + bt z = z0 + ct The variable "t" does not stand for "time." It is simply a parametric variable which by convention is usually labeled "t" (just as the variables for spatial dimensions by convention are labeled "x," "y,", and "z"). So why would "a point moving continuously in teh same direction and expressed by a linear equation" necessarily be defined as "4D"? Twentieth time: "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with that definition or not? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Suppose my 3D not bended straight bar model were to extend suddenly (abe: from 3 ft.) to beyond the edge of the universe. 1. What could possibly stop it or curve it? 2. Abe: Would it's ends connect? 1. Whether space is curved or not a 4D model is still required. Whether or not the bar bends or not a 4D model is still required.2. The empirical evidence of our universe all tells us that space is curved. But whether or not space is curved a 4D model is required regardless. Any model of the universe that includes 3 spatial dimensions and time will need to be a 4D model.
That's the major problem with your ball/motion model. It does not relate to my bar model. But a ball moving in 3 spatial dimensions as time progresses is about as common sense and everyday an example as it is possible to get. If your "model" of tyhe universe is unable to cope with this scenario it can hardly be said to reflect reality now can it? Your "model" of the universe consists of you waving your hands in three directions and yelling "Look. Look. Look" It is not a method of modelling or representing anything. To describe the motion of objects in 3 spatial dimensions you need a time component. You need co-ordinates that represent time as well as co-ordinates to represent the position in terms of each of the 3 spatial dimensions. Without this there is no means of representing motion, calculating velocity or determining acceleration. A 3D model is therefore insufficiant. A 4D model is essential regardless of curvature, bent bars, BB, GR or any of the other things that you find so darned offensive. Your inability and refusal to grasp this unbelievably simple point is utterly perplexing to me. It is obvious. A child can see it. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler, your non-answer totally avoided answering the two questions. We need yes or no answers and why.
All you did is repeat your unsubstantiated claim that 4D is required without answering the questions. 1. Obviously the answer to #1 has to be that no property of space will stop the sudden extension of the (abe: not curved) bar and you simply don't want to admit that fact. 2. Obviously the answer to #2 is that the ends would not meet with this model and you simply don't want to admit that fact.
Suppose my 3D not bended straight bar model were to extend suddenly (abe: from 3 ft.) to beyond the edge of the universe. 1. What could possibly stop it or curve it? 2. Abe: Would it's ends connect? THESE QUESTIONS ARE BUMPED FOR ANYONE ELSE WHO CARES TO RESPOND WITH YES OR NO AND WHY. Edited by Buzsaw, : quote fix Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5017 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Cavediver,
Hi, could you explain what would happen at r<3m? Did you get around to explaining this? Would the figures appear to move closer to each other for the man in the corridor? Cheers- Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Would the figures appear to move closer to each other for the man in the corridor? No, you wouldn't see any figures any more because as with r>3M, the corridor is curved. However, now it curves the wrong way (i.e. if the blak hole is to your left, the corridor curves away to the right)
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Cavediver writes: Now although light can escape the vicinity of the black hole, that does not mean it is unaffected by the black hole's presence. If a photon is moving away from the black hole, but not straight out (not perpendicular to the event horizon), then the gravitational field will cause the photon to spiral outwards around the black hole. Is it possible to send a photon around teh black hole, so that it will actually be in orbit, and will return to its starting point? Yes. 50% further out from the event horizon, we reach r=3M. A photon emitted tangentially will race around the black hole and arrive back at its starting point. f nothing is blocking its wy, it will endlessly orbit the black hole.
Where does it go if perpendicular to the event horizon and continuously extended? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Codegate Member (Idle past 845 days) Posts: 84 From: The Great White North Joined: |
Well, I doubt you will ever get a definition of straight from those you are asking, so I will give it a go on their behalf.
A line (or bar) is considered straight if any two planes that are perpendicular to the line are also parallel. I believe this defines straight as Buz wants. Mind you, it does beg the question, what defines two planes as parallel in warped space? Edited by Codegate, : No reason given.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
All you did is repeat your unsubstantiated claim that 4D is required
Unsubstantiated? Tell me Buz how would you model the movement of an object in 3D in a given period of time without using 4 dimensions? soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5017 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Cavediver writes: No, you wouldn't see any figures any more because as with r>3M, the corridor is curved. However, now it curves the wrong way (i.e. if the blak hole is to your left, the corridor curves away to the right) Ah ha! I understand now, thanks. Sounds like a fun idea for an animation... Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
DrJones writes: Unsubstantiated? Tell me Buz how would you model the movement of an object in 3D in a given period of time without using 4 dimensions? There you go again, attempting to slip in the time non-spatial time dimension which has nothing to do with my 3D rigid bar through the back door. How about forthrightly answering my two questions relative to an instant extension bar model? It appears that everybody's running from those questions so far. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Where does it go if perpendicular to the event horizon and continuously extended? What do you mean by continuoysly extended? How do you 'continuously extend' a photon? Do you mean, trace out the path that photon would take?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Assuming a closed universe, that the bar is straight in our three dimensions and that it doesn't have magic properties that let it break out of our three-dimensional space: 1) It would run into itself. Even if it was curved it would have to do that eventually. 2) If it was straight, they would.
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