The rights of a conscious entity

Lets say somebody tomorrow announced that they had created another universe and living in that universe where creatures which where of similar intelligence to that of humans and they where conscious like us. These creatures would be living a meaningless life they would be born, live for 80 or 90 years and then would die. They would go through much suffering and pain but in the end it would all be for nothing because they die at the end and there is no after life.Would there be an uproar in human society today claiming this is a very cruel idea and is creating pointless suffering?Is it a breach of “human rights” or the such?In this case could you argue that it better to live and die for nothing then to never be born at all?

I'm going to tentatively move this coffee house. Unless you were planning to swing the topic into theology or ID, that might be for the best. If you were planning to go into Bible Study or ID related avenues let us know and we'll move it there.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Welcome to the fray WaveDancer.Aren't you jumping the gun a bit? Presumably you mean that they would have no religions, and thus no religious fanatics blowing each other up and causing extensive wars and spreading hatred under the name of love.Perhaps being unencumbered by false ideas of reality they could concentrate on understanding the actual reality of "life, the universe, and everything" (to quote DNAdams), and actually have very productive and happy lives. But you have not established that they would necessarily BE suffering.I'm sure there would be an uproar in the religious fanatic crowd clamoring to "save" these people from reality, but that doesn't mean that the people would want such interference.Do you really want to know what "the rights of a conscious entity" are?They are freedom from the persecution by religious people to force beliefs they do not have down their throats.They are the freedom to live their own lives by their own conscious ideas and concepts, the values they have for living happy lives.And that's just for beginners .... if you want to study up on this topic there are some websites I can suggest, but you can start here:Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia Again, you have not shown that it would be "for nothing" -- that is just your preconceived notion, and we have no evidence that it is a true one.Why should I let you make up my mind for me, especially if I am a conscious entity fully capable of making up my own mind after an open minded and skeptical review of all the available evidence?Enjoy.

---

ps - as you are new here, some posting tips:type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes: or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:

---

quotes are easy

---

also check out (help) links on any formating questions when in the reply window.For other formating tips see Posting TipsIf you use the message reply buttons (there's one at the bottom right of each message):

... your message is linked to the one you are replying to (adds
clarity). You can also look at the way a post is formated with the "peek" button next to it.Edited by RAZD, : added ps

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

---

• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

What makes this issue different than when a couple decides to have a baby?

---

Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev

what a presumptuous premise for an OP! Just because there is no afterlife doesn't mean it's 'all for nothing'.A better topic could be started by you explaining why a life without any afterlife is 'all for nothing' !

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

I am with the thread starter on that one - life doesn't have to end so ugly. It's disgusting that everything we hold as magnificient, beloved and dear must be terminated at certain point. FOREVER.
It's indeed cruel.

It is not different. Maybe people will start having less babies as they open their eyes and realise there is no God and afterlife. I can see this being a problem already in relatively unreligious EU; they speak of a demographic catastrophe that's underway:"The EU faces challenges in its demographic future. Most concerns centre around two related issues; an ageing population, and overall population decline.The 2006 birth rate is 10 births per 1000 population, while the death rate is 10.1 deaths per 1000 people, making 2006 the first time in modern (non war) history where more people have died in Europe than were born. [10] The total fertility rate is an internationally low 1.47 children born per female, [11] where fertility rates above 2 per female are generally needed to maintain the current population."Demographics of the European Union - WikipediaEdited by Agobot, : No reason given.

If Natural Selection could feel sympathy and compassion, she would no doubt have created us importals. But so much for wishful thinking

Except for the "much suffering and pain" part, this is exactly the way our lives are.If the guy creating the universe knew they would go through much suffering and pain, I'd quite frankly find him an asshole.Now, if you leave out the suffering and pain, I don't see any reason why this would not be acceptable, as long as we don;t interfere with this universe after we created it.I think what you are reflecting on is the fact that if there is no "afterlife" this life is meaningless, and you are correct to a degree. I don't think there's an afterlife (haven't seen any evidence for it at least) I don't think my life meaningless on a personal level, though indeed if looking at the universe as a whole, so far it's been utterly meaningless. This however does not disturb me. Why should it? I'm happy with my life the way it's going right now, and that's all that really matters. Being insignificant is working out rather well for me

Too bad the happy lives have to permanently end so ungracefully by this: [URL=http://imageshack.us]< !--UB And then turn to this:http://pictures.traveladventures.org/images/yemrehanna-kristos-church09This what we are, meaningless dust. This is one of the reasons why i call life a meaningless, bleak and irrelevant nonsense.< !--UB And then turn to this:http://pictures.traveladventures.org/images/yemrehanna-kristos-church09This what we are, meaningless dust. This is one of the reasons why i call life a meaningless, bleak and irrelevant nonsense.[]< !--UB And then turn to this:http://pictures.traveladventures.org/images/yemrehanna-kristos-church09This what we are, meaningless dust. This is one of the reasons why i call life a meaningless, bleak and irrelevant nonsense.< !--UB And then turn to this:http://pictures.traveladventures.org/images/yemrehanna-kristos-church09This what we are, meaningless dust. This is one of the reasons why i call life a meaningless, bleak and irrelevant nonsense.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Yes, and like I said, i'm fine with that. Are you not fine with that? Do you want to change this? Immortality would be ever so boring if we have to live it in these bodies on this planet. There's only so many times you can jump of the empire state building and still enjoy it you know.

Well would they also experience happiness and joy? Would they find meaning in their own lives and those of their children (can these creatures have children?) regardless of an afterlife? If you create creatures solely in order to inflict pain and suffering upon them with no opportunity or likelihood for anything else then that is a very different argument. Is that what you are asking? Are you creating creatures purely to suffer? Or are you creating creatures where suffering is just a small part of the "human" experience? You don't need to invent creatures to explore this. You could ask if severely disabled human children "should" be born. You could ask if human children destined to a life of extreme poverty are better off never being born...........I don't think that you can generalise regarding such cases and I don't pretend to be qualified to answer such questions for anyone else.The idea of an afterlife has it's own issues. Who takes part? Every naturally aborted embryo? The afterlife would consist of more people that never had a "life" than those that did.

A 'meaningful' life is established WHILE YOUR LIVING, hence the name 'meaningful life. Living a meanngful life has nothing to do with whether there is or isn't an afterlife. During the course of one's life meaning is established by the things we do, the people we influence, the lives we help etc, etc...Faith that there is an afterlife adds nothing in my opinion. This is just a human self-centered attituded that feels that they should be rewarded somehow for being born, surviving to an old age, and procreating...Well on behalf of every other species on this planet, who obviously lack the ability to communicate to us, who gives a shit?! Pointless suffering? How exactly are they suffering?If there was an uproar, I imagine it would only be coming from the religious folk. No, this would actually be the most fundamental form of human rights. It's a society free of religious bullshit...lucky them huh? Again, here I would argue that life worth is establish while one is alive and has nothing to do with an afterlife, or the possiblity of an afterlife, or the faith that there is an afterlife at all.

---

"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

We don't live in a static world, the Earth is EVER-changing. I don't think I have to provide links or studies on that.
So essentially, what you said equals:"If we lived in a static world, life would be boring". To which I have no objections, and it's a good thing it's not the case.PS. At least 99% of the people don't want to die and are doing ANYTHING they can to prolong life. Maybe life's really too short for boredom to set in.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.