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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 88 (48102)
07-30-2003 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jake22
07-30-2003 8:59 PM


Christianity is a personal and very real relationship with God through Jesus.
I have a question about this. Second commandment says something like :
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me (Ex. 20:2 - 3)
No other gods before me. So why a need for mediator? The phrase
"very real relationship with God through Jesus" sounds like a "very real relationship with my wife through a priest in the Church next door". How real can it be? I'm not trying to make fun of anybody's believes here... just trying to understand them that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jake22, posted 07-30-2003 8:59 PM Jake22 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Jake22, posted 07-31-2003 12:10 AM THEONE has replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 88 (48133)
07-31-2003 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jake22
07-31-2003 12:10 AM


Okay, here is the general Christian view of being justified to God through Jesus. Instead of like having a:
quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
real relationship with my wife through a priest in the Church next door
---------------------------------------------------------------------
it's more like having a
real relationship with your wife through touch, speech, and other modes
You having a relationship with MY WIFE....through touch and speech and just what other modes are we talking about here? And Jesus is in on it? Jake, I thought you were a good Samaritan.... This deeply hurts me. Man... I have to go put a smack down on my old lady now.... and don't let me catch you touching and speeching again!!!
[This message has been edited by TheOne, 07-31-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jake22, posted 07-31-2003 12:10 AM Jake22 has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 88 (48134)
07-31-2003 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Autocatalysis
07-31-2003 12:02 AM


quote:
I have to add in here a wonderful story I was told about a missionary in new guinea.
This missionary didn’t speak the local language of the particular village ( not surprising since there are more languages spoken in new guinea than the rest of the world put together) so his initial attempts to communicate the concept of hell involved a small oil painting. Depicted in this painting was a great many fires, white people burning and a dark individual with a fork like spear. Now it took quite a bit of time to convince the locals that a bonfire and roasting white men was a bad thing. Quite frankly, they thought a great feast was in the making. The picture was hastily withdrawn!
LOL... LMFAO

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-31-2003 12:02 AM Autocatalysis has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 88 (48350)
08-01-2003 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by doctrbill
08-01-2003 12:03 PM


What you said certainly makes sense, and if I knew more about it then I'd have something to say
Well, I'll help you out on that one... After all you did promise to not call my wife anymore!
doctrbill wrote:
In other words: Israel is commanded to rest after six days of labor because God rested after six days of labor
Almost. Israel is commanded to rest on Shabbat because God told them to rest on Shabbat. If you look at the sequence of commandments you will see that first comes the commandment to Know God, then not to belive in other gods..., then Keep Shabbat .... and only after this do we get to Honor parents, Don't kill... and so on.
On a side note: All of this was said to Hebrews, no Christians were even in the making at that time. With regards to Shabbat it is said "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates." Ex. 20:8-10 notice that this commandment states excactly who should keep it (Hebrews, their sons and dauters, man/maidservants, their animals or anyone in their gates (i.e. if a Roman or Greek decides to stay over for the weekend at a Jewish house, he or she must honor laws of Shabbat). But nowhever does it mention gentiles. (It mentions animals so that a hebrew would not say "Well, it's Shabbat I won't work but my bull can plow the field" that would be a "no-no" according to the commandmet and this particular hebrew would be punished just the same as if he was working himself)
So the question is: Why does God put laws of Shabbat before killing and things of that nature??? Is it more important to keep Shabbat than not to kill?
Jewish understanding is that if you keep Shabbat, you are constantly reminded that there is God who created you and everything around you. God who gave you Bible which describes how this world works (and I'm not talking about laws of physics or biology. I'm taliking about laws of morality). Keeping Shabbat, is a testimony to first three commandments. If you don't keep it once, you are more likely to not keep it again... and again... slowly it will lead a person away from God and away from fulfilling our purpose. If you keep Shabbat, more then likely (not for sure) you won't kill and do other "messy" things.
BTW; A death penalty is attached for those who fail to respect this commandmentr
Indeed. This capital punishment is attached by the Sanhedrin (the Hebrew "Supreme Court", it consisted of seventy one great Bible Sages). Sanhedrin only existed in times of Holy Temple (ended almost 2000 years ago). In regards to Shabbat it established 39 labor categories not to be performed during the day of rest and many more derivative labors from those 39 general categories.
However, as with all capital offenses, one could not be executed unless he acted deliberately i.e. with knowing knowlege that what he was doing was prohibited. Moreover, for the court to impose this penalty the act must have taken place :
(a) in the presence of two proper witnesses, and
(b) immediately after the perpetrator had been warned by them of the transgression and its consequences.
If either of these conditions were not met, the matter no longer fell under the jurisdiction of the courts, but was subject of Heavenly punishment (meaning God will decide on that one)
Another thing you probably didn't know is that if Sanhedrin (Court) sentenced more then 3 people to death in 7 years it (Sunhedrin) was considered a "Killer Court" and was to be completely reassembled with new Judges (even if 3 sentencees were murderers). It was Court's essence to exercise mercy.
Now, compare this court system with all the other ones of that time (about 3000 - 1900 years ago) and tell me what you think.
In case you want reference: Gemara, 1st Vol. on Shabbot, Talmud Bavli, Tractate Shabbos, Tulmud on Sanhedrin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by doctrbill, posted 08-01-2003 12:03 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 88 (48352)
08-01-2003 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by John
08-01-2003 7:08 PM


verses from the Bible which prove that 'day' can mean 'a long span of time.'
You are right... Bible verses cannot prove that 'day' can mean 'a long span of time'. However, physics can, and Einstien did, with "Law of Relativity". I guess that all depends on frame of reference, right? Hmmm... there's a thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by John, posted 08-01-2003 7:08 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-02-2003 10:13 AM THEONE has replied
 Message 84 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 3:27 AM THEONE has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 88 (48359)
08-01-2003 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by doctrbill
08-01-2003 12:03 PM


Doctrbill, I checked out your website and have to admit... you got some interesting concepts going on there. I like this one about Shabbat,
Quote from you site: http://www.sun-day-school.us/penalty.htm
I believe this day, at one time, may have been utilized for military training. I cannot yet prove it, but this would explain a lot.
Hmm... Very interesting. But I'm at loss here. Maybe I didn't read something else on your site that would clarify this abit.
ps.. You know, back in the "Dark Ages" Jews were blamed for drinking blood of Christian babies and/or using that blood to bake the Passover Matza. The result was persecution (and death) of many Jews.
another quote from same page:
The day is holy because, in six days the LORD made heaven and earth ... and rested the seventh day.
This is what bible tells us literally. But if you search for atleast a little bit of understanding underneath you got to come up with a question...Why did he create heaven and earth in the first place??? According to Bible, it is for us to enjoy and to fulfill our purpose in life.
So the whole week we work to fulfill our purpose just like God did. And on Shabbat we enjoy everything He created for us and celebrate whatever good we have "created" for ourselfs in that week.
With that said, it's Friday (Shabbat) and the sun is almost setting! I already hear the war tumphet. I must hurry and get to the nearest Jewish Military Center, I mean Synagog.... Maybe this is the day when we take over the world...
Shabbat Shalom!
[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by doctrbill, posted 08-01-2003 12:03 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by doctrbill, posted 08-01-2003 11:30 PM THEONE has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 88 (48403)
08-02-2003 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by John
08-02-2003 10:13 AM


Physics can't prove a damn thing about the meaning of a word in old book.
but physics can prove and idea of a time flow in one place being different from time flow in another place with different gravitational pull.
But that is irrelevant. The authors of Genesis weren't refering to relativity.
No, they were not. They were refering to heaven and earth, meaning our universe (according to my religion). Relativity is a part of the laws of our universe.
Not much of one. It reminds me of those brilliant insights people have while stoned.
You should try to think outside of the box sometimes. Yeh, it is easy to follow the scientific process. But people who made any progress, even in science, had tremendous imaginagion. Let's take the same Einstein for example. He wasn't good just because he new the formulas, he was good because of his concepts (which he proved with those formulas). Science is a most powerful tool people ever invented. But as any other tool, it serves to accomplish a certain goal. And I don't want to judge anybody's goals here, but it seems that other people do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-02-2003 10:13 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by John, posted 08-02-2003 6:02 PM THEONE has not replied
 Message 83 by doctrbill, posted 08-02-2003 10:29 PM THEONE has not replied

  
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