Why this story and not another?

I'm not a Christian (I'm Jewish) and I don't have any problems with science, actually I thank God for very fact that we have all sort of sciences and scientists. But I think that Bible contains all of the important information about the world that we live in. Including process of creation. However, you must go way beyond litteral interpretation to extract that info. Just think for a second about this equation: E=mc^2. 5 characters (well i have to use 6 on the computer for the square thing). Underneath these 5 characters are pages and pages of mathematical formulas and underneath those formulas are bookshelfs (or even libraries) of books containing most of the secrets of time, space and matter. All fit into this lousy 5 characters which don't mean ANYTHING to a person who knows nothing about physics.So to me your question sounds like why belive in E=mc^2 and not in E=ELMO, Well, since you can make your own decisions, read libraries of books on one subject and libraries of books on the other subject. Then you won't need to ask this question.

Couldn't agree with you more. What makes me be that? I'll give you some of my background to answer that question. I was born and raised in Communist USSR. Throughout my school years I was brought up under communist slogans such as "Religion is opium for the people" and anti-religious doctrines of that sort. My parents (and most of the family) are not religious and I don't blame them. My father was 8 years old when Jews were burned in the ovens and gassed en masse in gas chambers during Holocust. That pretty much ended his religious experience. (as for many others in my family). My parents neither spoke of God nor did they want to hear about Him (even now). Whatever Holocost didn't finish, communists took care of. If you circumcise you jewish kid you might get a visit from the infamous KGB and next day you are visiting prison or getting a one way ticket to Siberian Labor camp for 10 years (no court, no lawer, just the sentence). So believe me when I tell you that no-one spoon-fed me any religious stuff.Only when I came to US, did I start to learn what being Jewsih is all about. What it believes and what it teaches. By that time I already had a college degree (from Russian University) and belive me, I didn't take any concepts based on blind faith. But also I was able to bypass the seemingly childrens stories in the Bible to get practical and valuable lessons. And even now, while I continue to study my religion, I hold a principle "don't belive it until you try it and see that it works (or makes sense)". For some reason all the Rabbies that I know don't even have slitest problem with my principal and actually incourage it.So that is my take on things, don't mean to sound like I'm preaching but you asked a personal question and I gave you a personal answer. I hope you take it just as that. Funny thing. I felt just the same about being brought up the way I was. To me religion was a way out of that box. Go figure.... I'll put it this way... The god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in him either.

Never did you hear me say, nor will I ever say that any of the religions are wrong. I just state which one I believe in.As far as atheists..., they are 100% correct(from their point of view). After all God is not completely revealed, yet. Why believe?

The concepts of God's essence are completely different. Also, the way of studying the Scriptures differs. And there are Volumes and Volumes of additional texts and scriptures which Christianity disregarded and substituted with Jesus. You don't have to be sorry at all. You didn't say anything wrong. I do appreciate your appology though. I never turned away from facts. I think that science is the key to understanding our physical universe and what's in it. And I do have alot of problems understanding alot of things in the Bible. However, I will not disregard the whole thing (Bible) because to me there is just as many things that do make sense.
As someone said, "The inability to understand Bible completely does not necessarily mean that the Bible is wrong. A person might just lack insight." how can you have facts about spirituality? It's not a physical thing. You have no tools for it. Most importantly, you can't feel it with any of your 5 senses, which means you cant create any tools for it. So what do you say when you hug your girlfriend (or wife)? I love you but there is 0 facts that I do...? My love for you is a big... Blank?To ask for physical facts about a spiritual concept....?In any case, what makes me believe, is ALOT of ideas and concepts about my religion that most people don't even know exist. Most of those concepts are in Gemara and Midrash (Talmud), even more in Kabbalistic literature. I can't even start to explain to you the scope of the knowlege contained in those writings.

Sure. I'm not sure you are ready for it but here it goes:"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" (Beresheet 1:6)Three distinct spiritual energy forces permeate all existence. Using the language of metaphor, Kabbalah (Zohar, Volume 1, 6:44 - 65) identifies these three forces as Right, Left and Central Columns. Right correlates to the positive [+] force, which manifests physicality as the proton. Left signifies the negative charge [-], manifesting as the electron. Central is expressed through the neutron, the force that bridges the positive and negative poles. Just as the filament in a light bulb creates the resistance that generates light, the Central column corresponds to cosmic force of resistance - The Firmament whose resistance produces illumination. Even sunlight striking a physical object requires reflection in order to generate luminous energy. This model for arousing both spiritual and physical Light is mirrored within ourselves. Our left side corresponds to the negative pole [-], and to our Desire to recieve. The right side signifies the positive pole [+], the will to share that resides in our soul. Our hearts and minds correspond to the central aspect. This is our free will, whereby we can choose to resist the Desire to recieve and nurture the desire to share. This is the choice that arouses spiritual Light.With this introduction lets dive into the fun part, the text of Kabbalah.
Zohar, Volume 1, 6:44 :"And Elohim said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" (Beresheet 1:6). This phrase alludes to a detailed reform of the separation of the upper from the lower waters according to the secret of the Left. Here, the dispute according to the secret of the left occured. Until this point, Refferring to the first day, reference is made to the right. But on the second day, reference is to the secret of THE GOVERNING OF the left. Because of this, a great dispute broke out ON THE SECOND DAY between the two sides. THE LEFT WANTED TO CANCEL THE GOVERNING POWER OF THE RIGHT ENTIRELY, WHILE THE RIGHT WHANTED TO CANCEL THE GOVERNING POWER OF THE LEFT ENTIRELY. THE right which is the secret of CHESED (kindness) AND THE FIRST DAY, is the perfection of all. Because of this, everything was written in the right on the first day. This means that all the seven days, wich are the seven sfirot, are emerged in it and are alluded to in it, because every perfection depends on the right side.When the rule of the left ws aroused, its dispute with the right began and the fire of anger in that dispute became fierce. From this dispute, Gehenom was created. So Gehenom was awakened and created by the left, and cleaved to it. (Which means that whoever wants to strengthen the left shall fall into Gehenom, which originates from it).Edited to say: Gehenom is commonly refered to as Hell. However, Kabbalistic and Talmudic concept of this word is what the soul experiences for what it now recognizes as a mistake. It is not a place where a soul stays forever.So, Doctrbill, How is that for a "Little Box"? Can you hear me now? Or you still in your little box trying to prove that Shabbat was used for military training back in "Military Rule" of Moses?[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]

Simple answer: Hindus believe in multiple Gods. I hold a view of Judaism which says there is only one source for everithing in our entire universe.Kind of like that joke:
A group of scientists comes up to God and says: "God, we have finaly figured out how easy it is to make a man."
God replies "Go ahead, show me"
"Well, you just take a handfull of sand and ....."
God interupts them right there and says, "Hey, go get your own sand!"but this joke is more specific to religion:A Jewish man moves into a Catholic neighbourhood. Every Friday The Catholics are driven crazy because, while they're morosely eating fish, the Jew is outside barbecuing steaks. So the Catholics work on the Jew to convert him to Catholicism.
Finally, after many threats and much pleading, the Catholics succeed. They take the Jew to a priest who sprinkles holy water on the Jew and says, "Born a Jew, Raised a Jew, Now a Catholic."
The Catholics are ecstatic. No more delicious, but maddening smells every Friday evening. But the next Friday evening, the scent of barbecue wafts through the neighbourhood.
The Catholics all rush to the Jew's house to remind him of his new diet. They see him standing over the cooking steak.
He is sprinkling water on the meat and saying, "Born a cow, Raised a cow, Now a fish."

Unfortunately. What does it have to do with upper and lower waters? It is a metaphor for upper and lower spiritual worlds. Deriving from different Sfirots (some of them represented by days in Genesis). That what I meant by saying your are not ready to understand. Under the litteral text there are encoded secrets on how spiritual worlds shape and manifest themself in physical sense. The thing you quoted deal with completely differen level of interpretation. According to my tradition, Torah has 48 dimensions (or levels of interpretation). It takes a life time of study.This reminds me of a story. One of our greatest spiritual giants was asked by his student, "Can you teach me all the sublime secrets and magnificent mysteries of the cosmos in the short time that it takes to remain balanced on one leg?" The eminent master upon hearing his eager student's request, considered the question very carefully. Then he said,"Love thy neighbor as thyself. All the rest is mere commentary. Now go and learn."

Rrhain you write: The point is... I belive in one thing because it makes sense to me. But at the same time I don't claim to hold "absolute truth". I do belive in right and wrong, I just don't think of myself as the Judge.I some sense you are right though. I do belive that other religions are wrong for me. To me he is not completely revealed yet. So for me it is wrong. But who am I to say what is right to the person on the other side of this monitor? Maybe that person had an enlightment that only awaits me in 20 years?[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]

schrafinator, here's a respond to your post #15 As you might of noticed by now, I believe in God. I also belive that Torah is the word of God, transmited through Moses. It is not necessary for someone to mean anything while writing down what is being transmited. More than likely. That is why they were given Torah. Which says what it really is. Right after they accuired Torah, they began studying it. Even up to this day. What I quoted you is book called Zohar, it was written way before let's say Newton's time. Which means, it's written even before the knowelege of electricity (and no I'm not saying Newton discovered electricity). I added things about protons and electrons to help explain a concept, that's it. Zohar only states Right (pure) Left(impure) and Central (neither). Pure we can compare to something that is positive, impure to something that is negative. And thanks to physics now we can go even deeper and ad protons, electrons and so on, to explain things better.That's why Judaism never had any problems with science (maybe with exception of some fanatics). Whatever is in Torah can only be explained better with science. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way too well. But after all, Torah was never designed as a Chemistry or Quantum Physics "suplementary study". However, every single science is a "suplementary" or "additional" study for Torah. That's how I see it.[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]

Isaac Newton thought on a contrary. He studied Kabbalah, and in his theological writings he attributed some of his scientific discoveries to concepts he found in Kabbalah. You don't have to believe me, just look up his copy of Kabbalah which is still on records in Trinity College in Cambridge, UK. Also, you might enjoy his theological writings, surprisingly there are more of them then his scientific work. Go figure...I do have to agree on one thing. 95% of all kabbalistic writings which are out there in main stream bookstores are junk! It is hard to come-by a good source. Sounds good. Enjoy your science, I'll enjoy my tradition along with your science.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you.First of all, I believe there is God (regardless of any specific religion). Why? Because, I believe in right and wrong. What I mean is, if according to science everything is just a product of random reactions and mutations then how can I (or anybody) complain about what is right and what is wrong, how can I complain about unfairness? But it is in my essense to want to be treated fairly. As my school teacher used to say "Life is unfair, get used to it". Well, I'll get used to it, no doubt about that. But why do I feel it in the first place? According to science it's a concept which does not exist. There are just physical laws of nature. Nothing else. So how can science explain right and wrong? How can it even begin to EMPIRICALLY approach right/wrong behaviour? Who establishes the moral laws? Society in which you grew up in? Or communist society in which I grew up in? Which one is right? Prove it with science. Which science are you gonna use? quantum physics? chemistry? biology? social behavior? - but the last one is just a study of social body, or individual in a society, things of that nature. Can it prove that when Stalin killed 15 million of his own people, he was doing a bad thing? There are some people (and I personaly know a few) that think he did the right thing. WHO IS RIGHT? WHY DO WE EVEN HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT (OR WRONG)? IT'S ALL JUST A PRODUCT OF RANDOMNESS.
And that's what makes me believe in God. Because, there are underlined moral laws (and concepts of right and wrong) which transend all gender, race and age. To me that is what RELIGION IS. But how can you EMPIRICALLY TEST THESE LAWS? What FACTS DO YOU WANT?To me religion is not "Belive in Jesus or burn in hell" it's not "Pray to God every day and he will reward you with eternal life". To me and to Judaism religion is not a concept of reward and punishment in it's usual sense. I mean, if you stick your fingers in the electrical outlet and get electrectuted, is it logical to say that electricity punished you?Religion is (to me) a set of Universal Moral Laws which exist independently from laws of nature, science. God (to me) is the source and unity of these laws. That's why I hold on to monotheism and don't believe in multiple gods. In the latter, there could be no unity, there are just separate forces (meaning sets and subsets of independent moral laws which are equal but independent, to me there must be unity, I guess I'm like Einstien beliving in Unified Field Theory).So why Judaism? Because it was a first religion that came up with Monotheism and Moral Laws. Christianity and Islam (the only other monotheistic religions) take roots in Judaism. I want to learn roots, rather than branches. I want to go straight to the source, straight to the origin.Why not believe other stories? such as universe being created by a kid as a science project? Well, if you can build your life around that concept and come up with real Moral Laws which will make you a better person and make world a better place to live in *... Then why not believe in them?* Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism never had Inquisitions or Crusades (actually in both of these "events" they were usually victims). That is another reason why I choose Judaism. It is just a bit less violent (to say the least).

Go ahead. Today, in U.S. you can do that. The society you grew up in (I take it you grew up in U.S.) incorporated Moral Laws of Judaism into it's onw social structure. "Don't kill, don't steal and so on". Everything except believe in God and Keep the Shabbat. Well, you aren't jewish so no need to keep shabbat. As far as God goes, you don't need to believe in Him. If you kill or steal, Uncle Sam will try to punish you instead. In another words, it seems that you just substituted God for what Uncle Sam puts in the U.S Penal Code. (as the dollar bill says, In God we turst) WHY? BUT WHY DO WE DO THEM ANYWAYS? You don't need Him to tell you that, because the Society you grew up in is BASED on what He said. America was established by religios people. "All men are created equal". Notice the "created" part. There was very few atheists about 300 years ago, you know. but then again, Koran (Islamic bible) says that if someone will come to your house and tries to convert you, you must take out your sword and chop the head of the imbasel (not in these exact words). Whanna scientifically prove that they are wrong? God is not a Magical power. You think that you are smart enough, because all your life, since your birth, you were spoon fed God's morals through filter of a Social Behaviour based on His word. Good. I'm not trying to convert anybody here. I'll try to explain it in tearms of science.... For a second, look around you. You see all sorts of different things. They look different and feel different. If you break all these things down to chemical compounds, then down to chemicals, then down to molecules, then down to atoms... and finaly down to quarks. You will realize that all these things around you, are made of exactly the same thing. QUARKS. No matter if we are taking about monitor screen or yourself. All made of quarks. It just depends on different composition of them. But we still see that there are alot of quarks. But were do these quarks come from? Well, acording to modern physics they come from pure energy of the Big Bang.I believe physical is a manifistation of metaphysical. Or Universe and all in it, is manifistation of God.[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-04-2003]

No it was not. It was the first to started Ethical Monotheism though. Which morals? The ones Spartans had about giving their wifes to the strongest Spartans so they could impragnate them and give birth to the strongest babies for the Sparta? That's a good one.
Or Roman (and many other nations of that time) moral of killing retarded and handicaped children? Romans were actually outraged with the Jews, because Jews did not kill their mentally or physically challanged kids. How barbarious, to allow them to live and suffer!
Or, how about the Greek aristocratic moral about sex. Sex with women is for the sake of children, and sex with men is for pleasure. That's why most of the aristocracy had 14-16 year old slave boys for pleasure puropses. You like that moral?
Should I get into morals of Babylonians, Asirians, Egyptians and other great empires which preceeded the Hebrews?Name one empire of the time which had moral of not killing. (and I don't mean "don't kill your superior, but slawter your slave at any given moment") That is not a fact to me (if it is to you, prove it scientifically). Common sense is based on the environment you grew up in. If you would be raised in radical Islam environment, it would be common sense for you to kill the first Christian, or Jew, you would see near your house.

Exactly. Well, in another words, they believed in God, just didn't think he does sh**! So they sat around, waited for the revelation, it never came. They said, f*%& it! And wrote down the Constitution! LOL Yeh, sorry! and I'm not taking those ESL classes again! I think you are refering to "Thou shall have no other gods before me"(which is almost the same thing). That's what God told Hebrews. But in another part of OT (Torah) He says "Lest you.... and believe in gods I have prescribed to the gentiles...". Which means not all gentiles (non jews) have to believe in "the" God (maybe he was talking about the science community, who knows ). With regards to Christians perscribing "death penalty" for this sin, I can't say anything. I have my own "dissatisfactions" with Christian Doctrines.As far as Israelites perscribing capital punishment for it I'm gonna quote what I wrote in another topic:"Indeed. This capital punishment is attached by the Sanhedrin (the Hebrew "Supreme Court", it consisted of seventy one great Bible Sages). Sanhedrin only existed in times of Holy Temple (ended almost 2000 years ago)Thing you probably didn't know is that if Sanhedrin (Supreme Court) sentenced more then 3 people to death in 7 years it (Sunhedrin) was considered a "Killer Court" and was to be completely reassembled with new Judges (even if 3 sentencees were murderers). It was Court's essence to exercise mercy. "I can reference it if you'd like. See above. ("Lest you.... and believe in gods I have prescribed to the gentiles...". Which means not all gentiles (non jews) have to believe in "the" God.)Maybe this was the reason why Jews never had Crusades or never (not even now) spent billions of dollars for missionary purposes. I thought there was only 4 types. I guess I was wrong. In any case, doesn't Unified Field Theory says that even those different types come out from one source? I know it's just a theory and not yet proven, but isn't it the direction of scientific thought?

Maybe because it didn't incorporate ALL the commandments? But, I was refering to laws regarding people inside an "empire". All of the people in the "empires" could kill their slaves at will (things of that nature).[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-05-2003]