do you really Believe we are damned?

crashfrog

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What would piss me off about being told I'm headed for a place that doesn't exist? If anything it's kind of funny.

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Saying that someone is destined for hell was once, and may continue to be a serious threat.In the New Testament, "hell" is given for the Greek Gehenna, which is a combination of the Greek Ge "earth" and the Arabic henna "scorched." This was a nickname for the Jerusalem city dump but is also descriptive of a military tactic utilized from antiquity unto this day. I'm sure you've heard of the "scorched earth" policy.Christians may purport "hell" to be a place one goes after death but historically, they have brought hell to life: torching the cities of their enemies and burning their own dissidents at the stake.The scorched earth policy was employed against Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus himself threatened the same fate for those who resisted his politco-religious agenda.I wouldn't take threats of hell lightly from the Christian quarter. Their understanding of it has been well defined in holy scripture and in history.db------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

mike the wiz:

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I really do feel like a one man army at the moment, facing five thousand. lol. you are right I dont seek to judge anyone and tell myself off an awful lot if I even vere towards that road.

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Understandable and commendable Mike. Those decisions are up to your commander in chief.You must realize however that the army, in which you are enrolled, has a history of bringing hell to life (I speak of Christianity in general). You may believe that they were wrong to do so but do so they did; the history speaks for itself. If God disapproved of their action it would be difficult to show evidence of it. They have thrived and grown and continue to spread their philosophy; whereby anyone who does not submit to their King is ultimately doomed to burn.db------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

Sorry about that Mike. I think I know how that feels. There was a time when I would have given the same testimony. I'll have to agree that he didn't mention church (I don't think there were "churches" in those days). But,threatening people with hell is another matter. Speaking of judgment, Jesus said:

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[The Son of man] "shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand inherit the kingdom unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire ..." Matthew 25:33,34,41

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Jesus sent disciples to recruit followers from among the cities of Israel.
Speaking of those cities which did not respond appropriately to his call, Jesus said,

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It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:14,15

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You recall the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah?Then there is the apocalyptic imagery re: what will happen to anyone not aligned with Jesus when he returns to judge the world:

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"... if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 19:14 {Revised Standard Version}

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Do the Apostles buy into these violent threats?

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"Christ will be King until he has defeated all his enemies ..." 1 Corinthians 15:25

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Apparently so.Sounds like hell to me.db------------------
Does anyone graduate Sunday School?

Hello again Mike,Sounds to me like you are still a Christian at heart. Still haunted by the demons of this neopolitan, quasi-pagan cult.I couldn't help but notice that the prospect of their "hell" still holds primal terror for you.In answer to the others who have responded, vis a vis, why Christians go on about how Jesus died for their sins, I have a thought or two.He was the instigator of a would-be revolution which fizzled.
They were all involved (early on).
He was their best man, and he got caught.
They were all in it together, but he got the axe.
Too radical, too revolutionary, too outspoken, over confident. The leader.
They were all guilty of sedition. That was their sin. (their big mistake)
Only, He took the rap for it, for them.
Only, He died for it, for them, in their place. db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

This still an admission of his existence isn't it? If he is real enough, then he should respond by demonstrating that he is the truth, shouldn't he? I believe in Jesus. But in a metaphorical sense. I believe he is the everyman warrior who dies, is martyred, for his cause, only to triumph, ultimately, because the cause lives on and better for him having been sacrificed.(I don't like the last sentence , but I'm not going to tweak it.)db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

I looked back along this thread but couldn't find any previous mention of the "six days." If you mean the six days of creation week, then I must ask:Are the Ten Commandments a part of Christianity? Have you considered the Fourth Commandment, and the stated reasons for its existence?

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... the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God. No work may be done then ... In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20:8-11 New American Bible (Catholic)

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If I am not mistaken, the ten commandments are indeed a part of Christianity.BTW; A death penalty is attached for those who fail to respect this commandment:

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... whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall be put to death.... It is a sign for ever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Exodus 31:15,17 Revised Standard Version

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In other words: Israel is commanded to rest after six days of labor because God rested after six days of labor. This mimics the lunar calendar:Creation time begins with first-light in the dark primordium and ends on the evening of the sixth day (beginning of the seventh).Lunar calendar time begins with first-light in the dark moon and ends its first week on the evening of the sixth day (beginning of the seventh). {first quarter} See ShabbatThat the Omnipotent One needs to "rest" and is subsequently "refreshed" may be understood in the context of a moon-god which Yahweh has replaced. See Moon Goddb------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 08-01-2003]

I like your responses and have quite a lot on which to comment but I wanted to drop a quick line inspired by your last post, #77.TheOne writes:

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... from your site: http://www.sun-day-school.us/penalty.htm
"I believe this day, at one time, may have been utilized for military training. I cannot yet prove it, but this would explain a lot."

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I doubt you missed anything. This is a relatively new concept for me and it came as I considered how a cessation of labor during certain phases of the moon might evolve into what Shabat (i.e. Sabbath) has become today. It seems clear to me that such a cessation might have saved lives and property at the docks of ancient Mesopotamia, in which region the practice apparently originated as an aspect of the religion of the moon-god.By the time we get to Moses, the day-off seems, on the surface, to be a simple matter of good labor management. But the death penalty, which might have seemed appropriate in the high stakes shipping business at Ur, seems inordinately harsh when applied to anyone who works the weekend (if all it means is a simple day of rest).Consider the circumstances:

• There is an iron-fisted military government.
• There is no standing army.
• Men till fields or tend animals all week.
• Twenty year olds are automatically conscripted.
• The Temple doubles as an armory.
• It is forbidden to do your own pleasure on that day.
• It is forbidden to find your own way to occupy that day.
• If you don't turn out, you die.

I do not mean to say that it was always that way but come on, let's get real: - A loving God who kills you if you don't enjoy the weekend His way? It's like a reverse Weekend at Bernies!The priests, after all, worked overtime on newmoons and sabbaths, did they not? Even now the holy day of rest is often the busiest day of a clergyman's week.Any thoughts? Any evidences, pro or con? Every nation must sometime dream of taking over the world. Ancient Israel seems to have imagined that. But I expect the world turned out to bigger than anyone suspected in those days. At any rate, I can't think of more interesting characters whom I might be obliged to call Lord.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Hi Jake,There are as many opinions about what Christians believe as there are denominations of Christianity - many hundreds, at least. You may define it any way you wish.As for those who say that the days of genesis were ages, ask how the vegetation of the third age survived without the sun, which appeared in the fourth age.The text says, "the evening and the morning ..." Not "the sun rose and set." The sun is not created until the fourth day. Perhaps this study will help you understand the ancient "science" involved in this matter: FIRE
The whole page deals with Aristotle's "chemistry" of creation. When you get to the end of the section on light, click on the link to a page titled: "More About Light".Ancient "chemistry" was very different from what you learned in high school. You may have to dumb down a bit in order to understand what Aristotle imagined, but the man was a genius in his own time.It is correct to say that Genesis WAS good science. It's just not good science any longer.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

There's a box labeled "PERFECT WORD, All the Answers You'll Ever Need."
It's a puzzle box you know.
Difficult to get in ...
Nearly impossible to get out.Can you hear me in there?Can you hear me now?db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?