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Author Topic:   Flow Chart from DNA to Amino Acid
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 2 of 23 (484040)
09-25-2008 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by NOT JULIUS
09-25-2008 7:47 PM


Welcome to the fray Doubting Too
1) How can I post the flow-chart if I'm allowed?
(1) make it a picture (jpg etc)
(2) post picture to a photo sharing website
(3) find the url for the picture
(4) post [img]http://http://www.anthroposophie.net/.../Einstein2.gif[/img] and it becomes
To control image size using the thumbnail function use
[thumb=500]http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3677/chromosomesonetofivefo3.jpg[/thumb]
and it becomes:
You can still access the full size picture by clicking on it, thus information is not lost in the reduction to fit the pages here.
You can use almost any number to set the width, the default is 80, but the maximum should not be more than 500 to fit most screens. The image is also automatically centered (cool feature Percy!).
Note: using this to make small pictures larger will result in "pixilated" blurring.
2) Would members be kind enough to make corrections thereto?
3) Can I accompany the flow chart with just 6 or so questions without me replying.
Sure.
Enjoy


ps - as you are new here, some posting tips:
type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy
or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote:
quotes are easy
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by NOT JULIUS, posted 09-25-2008 7:47 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NOT JULIUS, posted 09-26-2008 4:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 23 (484156)
09-26-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NOT JULIUS
09-26-2008 6:00 PM


questions and PRATTs
Hello Doubting Too
I hope you are able to access the flow chart ( 3/7 message). And, I hope that my flow chart explains the basic transformation from DNA to protein to life. If not, please correct.
It seems to cover the basics of how proteins are made in modern evolved cells with highly advanced DNA (3 billion years in the making).
1. DNA is called the book of life. Can anyone make a book--that makes sense--by just throwing letters randomly?
I can call the tree in my back yard the book of life, but that doesn't mean that it's true - that I can open up the pages and see all there is to know about biological life.
Now you can open a book randomly and read each page and what you end up with is a random jumbling of ideas.
Or you can select to open pages in sequence, and when you do that you end up finding less jumbling and much more ordering of ideas.
Just as selection is the key to reading the book, selection is the key to making the book: the words and Ideas are selected to be in a particular place.
The question is how the selection occurs.
2. Genetic codes and information are embedded in DNA. Is not intelligence required to decode and process information?
No, the DNA is the genetic "code" and all it has is four letters arranged in various orders.
For us to understand the process we do need to apply a little intelligence and a lot of study, but that doesn't mean that intelligence is needed to make it.
3. The cell has a "complex copying" machine that replicates DNA's to RNAs. Which is more reasonable to believe that intelligence was needed to make that copying machine, or was it random chance that did it?
The "complex copying" machine is just molecules bonding according to the basic rules of chemistry, which means that some things can happen and others can't.
Just because something seems reasonable to you doesn't mean it is true: nature is indifferent and completely unaffected by opinion - yours, mine, anyone's.
4. The actual process from DNA to protein to life is a million times more complicated than this flowchart. As this flow chart required intelligence (though limited) to make, so should the more complex process require intelligence. Agree / Disagree? Please give reason.
Argument from incredulity is another logical fallacy that does not mean your conclusion is valid, and you are also committing the
all {A} is {B}
{B} exists
therefore {A} exists
fallacy.
Obviously not all {B} is necessarily {A} so you need to demonstrate there is no {B} that is not {A} before you can make this conclusion.
A snow flake is design but is not designed. The pattern in a kaleidoscope is pretty, but the reality is that it is a jumble of colored bits seen through mirrors: the point of view may see a pattern that does not in fact exist.
5. What did Miller's failed experiment in 1953 prove?
Who said it failed? Not Urey nor Miller
Miller—Urey experiment - Wikipedia
quote:
The Miller-Urey experiment (or Urey-Miller experiment) was an experiment that simulated hypothetical conditions present on the early Earth and tested for the occurrence of chemical evolution. Specifically, the experiment tested Oparin and Haldane's hypothesis that conditions on the primitive Earth favored chemical reactions that synthesized organic compounds from inorganic precursors. Considered to be the classic experiment on the origin of life, it was conducted in 1953 by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey at the University of Chicago.[1][2][3]
Organic compounds were formed, therefore it was a success.
a) that it requires blind chance to produce "left handed" amino acids--the building block of life?
But that was not the goal of the experiment. All they needed to do was produce amino acids. They did.
We also know that the early earth was bombarded by amino acids that formed in space and were carried to the earth by meteors. We have recovered some of these amino acids from meteors that have landed on earth in recent years.
For more information see Building Blocks of Life and note that this is nearly 3 years out of date, and abiogenesis is a rapidly growing and evolving field.
We know the building blocks were available on the early earth. The question is how the selection occurs.
Or, did it prove that the chance of life coming to existence by mere chance is mathematically impossible?
Curiously nothing about reality can be proven nor disproven by math. Math can only model reality, not control it: if the model does not predict what actually occurred then the model is wrong.
See the old improbable probability problem for a discussion of the problems with mathematical calculations and what valid conclusions can be reached from mathematical models.
6. Darwinian evolution--as taught in school--says that all living things came to existence because of unguided natural processes.
That may be what you were taught in your school, however it is not either "Darwinian evolution" (pre-genetics) nor is it Biological evolution (post-genetics).
Nor is it true.
Here is a Primer on Biological Evolution from Berkely (where they teach university level evolution). Consider this a remedial evolution course to bring you up to speed on what evolution is really all about.
quote:
The Definition:
Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.
I hope you read the whole thing, as there is a lot of valid and valuable information there. You would probably do best if you forgot everything anyone said to you about evolution first, no matter what the source was.
If you don't read the whole thing, you should at least check out the section on Natural Selection
quote:
Natural selection is one of the basic mechanisms of evolution, along with mutation, migration, and genetic drift.
Darwin’s grand idea of evolution by natural selection is relatively simple but often misunderstood. To find out how it works, imagine a population of beetles:
...
4. End result:
The more advantageous trait, brown coloration, which allows the beetle to have more offspring, becomes more common in the population. If this process continues, eventually, all individuals in the population will be brown.
If you have variation, differential reproduction, and heredity, you will have evolution by natural selection as an outcome. It is as simple as that.
Natural selection is not an "unguided natural processes" as it is a process that discriminates against those with less advantageous traits in favor of those with more advantageous trait.
Remember that the question is how the selection occurs.
On the other hand, intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not by undirected processes such as natural selection.
So the continuous evolution of bacteria that cause any number of lethal diseases, the change in them every year that allows them to survive the latest antibiotics developed by intelligent beings, the fact that last years flu vaccine is no good this year is "best explained by an intelligent cause" ??? My conclusion from this is that this "intelligent cause" favors bacteria over humans: it keeps trying to kill us off and let them live.
Considering the above flowchart--which hopefully simplified the picture--which is more reasonable to believe?
Again, what is "reasonable to believe" has no bearing on what actually happens in the world of reality. Reality is, sadly, completely unaffected by belief, no matter what that belief involves.
If you really want to study the problem from a scientific point of view, rather than take anyone's word for it, I would suggest starting from the bottom up:
(a) what do we know existed on an early earth? amino acids. (see what you can find about what amino acids were common on the ancient earth).
(b) what do we need as a minimum to start evolutionary processes? replication with variation and selection. (see what you can find out about 'LUCA' and replicating molecules).
Take it from there.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : open book

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NOT JULIUS, posted 09-26-2008 6:00 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NOT JULIUS, posted 09-26-2008 8:01 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 23 (484171)
09-26-2008 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NOT JULIUS
09-26-2008 7:23 PM


Re: Replies to Flow chart on DNA to protein?
Hey Doubting Too,
Message 15
Kuresu,
Please explain to me the following. I'm not familiar with them.I'm just a kid, you know.
a) ToE
b)Dumbski's information theory.
Theory of Evolution
William Dembski
Also see EvC Shorthand for some common acronyms.
I am waiting for other answers specially from those who believe in ID.
I'm a Deist, I'll see your ID and raise you one.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NOT JULIUS, posted 09-26-2008 7:23 PM NOT JULIUS has not replied

  
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